Tony

Yes, I do have my own belief system. I can't say that I developed my system entirely by myself because, of course, I used other people ideas. But I spend considerable amount of time reading everything I could find about physics, chemistry, astronomy, psychology, philosophy and logic.

My system is based on logic. If someone or something can convince me that I was wrong - I'm ready to change my opinion.

With religion situation is different. Quite often, someone has to believe first. Only after someone stops questioning (meaning - will become a TRUE BELIEVER) religion super power promise to show itself.

Some religious people tried to convince me that God exists. I usually say that I respect their opinion, but I have my own opinion. If they persist I warn them that my opinion is different and it might be too shocking for them to handle. (Remember: “You can’t handle the truth!”?)

One religious person said that he is ready to be burned alive, but he will never change his opinion about religion. Well, I told him the basics about astronomy. He was shocked. He didn’t believe me. He asked other guys that we worked together with and majority supported my story about astronomy. So, that guy stopped bugging me with his idea to convert me to religion.

Some direct questions about religion are considered politically incorrect. For example: Universe is so complex, so it must be created. Who or what did that? Religious people say – God did. If we just continue exactly the same logic: God must be a very complex creature. Who or what created him/her?
Probably, another God created the first one? And so on? Religious people often get upset and say: “How dare you to ask such question?!”

It’s scary. A few centuries ago I would be burned alive.

Or, if God is can create everything and can be everywhere at the same time, can he/she create a place where he/she can't be?

If God can create such a place - he/she can create everything, but can't be everywhere at the same time.

Or, if God can't create such a place - he/she can be everywhere at the same time, but can't create everything.

So, what will happen if a religious person will try to ask these questions himself? It means that he/she is not a true believer? So, super power will find and punish that person? Or, that person will not get into heaven?

By the way, when I hear about someone that he/she is good, God fearing person, I want to ask that person – Is it a good feeling to live your life with this fear? Do you really like it? Does it put extra pressure on you? Do you like to think that you are being watched by super power 24/7? What about privacy?

I don’t want to live in fear. I don’t want to be watched 24/7. We have enough fearful things in our life. Do we need one extra fear?

Gemma Therese

Aquinas said that we cannot understand God because He is utterly simple -- simple beyond all our conceptions of Him.

God was not created -- He existed. "I Am Who Am."

Gemma Therese

Celsus

And we're supposed to accept what dead man once said, why? Arguments from authority are logical fallacies. Why don't you try putting forward a proper argument? Or at worst, you might attempt to establish why the authority you cite is to be trusted.

Joel

P.S. Welcome to II, Tony.

Gemma Therese

Arguments from authority are only fallacies when person A makes statement B about subject C, and is not an expert on subject C.

Thomas Aquinas was obviously an expert on theology.

Gemma Therese

CaptainOfOuterSpace

No.

It is, however, funny how some people refer to themselves as "god-fearing" without realizing the implications of the phrase. Why would you fear your god if he is benevolent? I have heard a few people say that it's a sort of respect/fear thing. But I still think that a god who threatens us with eternal hellfire deserves more fear and less respect.

CaptainOfOuterSpace

The scent strongly reminds me of BS. Might as well say, "God exists outside the physical realm."

Celsus

Gemma, I have responded to you here.

Joel

Pyrrho

There is a fundamental problem with your idea of when it is okay to trust an "expert" on the subject. Not all "experts" on theology agree with Thomas Aquinas. Therefore, just agreeing with an "expert" on a subject is not satisfactory for discovering the truth.


To speak generally, an appeal to authority is only legitimate when we have a reason to believe both of the following:

1) The authority knows the truth about the matter in question.

2) The authority will be honest about the matter in question.


In the particular case of Aquinas, we have no particular reason to suppose that he knows any more about the matter than those who disagree with him.

In general, we may say that in ALL cases that are controversial (i.e., the experts do not generally agree), an appeal to authority is not legitimate.

orac

Quoting Einstein on physics (something he was an expert in) is a logical fallacy. Every last theory put forward by Einstein was still subject to extensive peer review and verification by other scientists before it was accepted as true.

Arguments from authority are always logical fallacies.

I never thought you worshipped Allah, but I'm pleased to see that you are a devout muslim.

After all, many experts on theology have written long and detailed books about how Islam is the one true religion, and as they're obviously experts you'ld accept what they say as being true, right?

Well, there is the small problem that theologians are experts on what people believe, rather than experts on reality, but that's such a picky detail you won't let it interfere with your worship of Allah, will you?

Hey, you're the one who said the opinions of expert theologians qualify as proof of religious beliefs. Can you back that up? Or will you admit that even expert theologians can be wrong?

Proxima Centauri

Thomas Aquinas was obviously an expert on irrational mythology. Unfortunately not every one can see how irrational.