Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sullster · 03-23-2002, 01:42 PM

Boneyard Bill has it right. All fundies I have known define being a christian, as one who has experienced the "born-again" state. To the fundy born-againers, absolutely no one else can claim to be a "christian", even if they are devout catholics who go to Mass every day, never mind people who go to, whatever denomination, once in a while. Don't even mention atheists to them.

The fundies have claimed the word-christian, as a term which applies to only themselves. Thus, catholics and every member of any protestant sect who is not "born-again", is not a christian and is of course going to hell.

Amos, wages a battle of sorts with the fundies, by making a counter-claim that only catholics are the true followers of jesus and thus all protestants are going to, you guessed it, hell. He is fighting fundy arrogance and exclusiveness with his own version of the same in a catholic form. Makes you realise why the catholics and protestants killed eachother in the wars of the Reformation during the 16th century.

03-23-2002, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


Who, other than yourself, says that Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrand, Gogol, Einstein and Spinoza are anointed of Yahweh.

As far as I know none of these people were anointed with the mission of saving the people of Yahweh. Obviously you know something the rest of the world doesn't.

Of course they were anointed and had the mind of God which is obvious from their inspired writings. Gogol wrote in plain words, "he has no equal, he is God."

The mission to save other people is a religious idea and religion is not for the anointed or their would be churches in the New Jerusalem. It is just fundy bait to create the herd mentality trough which the courageous sinner must be identified as "lost."

So here now we have the idea that religion is needed to make sinners known because the laws of Moses cannot function without a stream of consciousness. This stream of consciousness is intergenerational (as if written upon stone) and it is therefore that John the Baptist was born from the netherworld (Catholic doctrine) to prepare the way and this is also in the bible.

My ideas are quit common but not in protestant circles.
[/QB]

03-23-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


You are saying here that Jesus was without sin but his judges knew that he was bearing the sins of the world and therefore convicted him.

Jesus was the reborn Joseph and the crucifixion was a spiritual event in which Jesus bore the sins of Joseph to the cross.

But which sins of the world are you talking about?
The ones from the start of the world up to Jesus' crucifixion? Or does it include all the sins which are on-going?

The sins of Joseph alone because they were the sins of his world. We are to follow Jesus and die to the sins of our world.

This says that Jesus opted to doing the sacrifice once at the end of the world instead of every year as the high priest did it.

Correct, it was the crucifixion of his sin nature and subsequent redemption of the sins of his world into the upper room, which is the subconscious mind . . . that heretofore was the netherworld (hades) to convert the sins of the clan, nation and tribe. These are the persistent or generational sins to whom we are subjected and unless they are purified we will never overcome the paradox sinfull yet saved. Read Zamjatin's "WE" on this and see how he does this. 

high priest = once a year for the year's sins
Jesus = once at the end of the world for all sins.

Early Christians believed that the end of the world was at hand. But the end of the world did not happen as Jesus predicted.

Nothing has changed and that is why Jesus said "it is an evil age that looks for a sign of the times.

NOGO · 03-24-2002, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO
Who, other than yourself, says that Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrand, Gogol, Einstein and Spinoza are anointed of Yahweh.
As far as I know none of these people were anointed with the mission of saving the people of Yahweh. Obviously you know something the rest of the world doesn't.

So who says that these people were anointed ones of Yahweh? Other than yourself of course.

Quote:

Amos
Nothing has changed and that is why Jesus said "it is an evil age that looks for a sign of the times.

You missed the point or simply chose to ignore it. Hebrews 9 says that Jesus had a choice
a) to sacrifice himself every year
b) to sacrifice himself once at the end of the world

So Jesus sacrificed himself at the end of the world or what Christians thought would be the end of the world. You can't simply answer this by stating that nothing has changed. 2000 years later you can no longer claim as Hebrews 9:26 says that Jesus sacrificed himself at the end of the world.

Let me try and be clearer on this. There is only two choices here as I stated above (a) and (b).
The current situation (ie 2000 years later) is neither (a) nor (b).
Jesus could have chosen to sacrifice himself year after year as the high priest did OR
do it only once at the end of the world.

Item (b) would make sense because that way Jesus would in effect catch all of human history's sins.
2000 years later this no longer makes sense because Jesus would have to sacrifice himself again for sins comitted after his first sacrifice.

If you say that Jesus sacrificed himself only for sins before 33 AD then you are in complete contradiction with the author of Hebrews 9.

But please do tell me who other than youself considers Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrand, Gogol as anointed ones of Yahweh?

IvanK · 03-25-2002, 06:39 AM

My Catholic wife gets mightily peeved when she hears Protestants make a distinction between Catholics and Christians. Most lately it was the Rev. Robert Schuller saying one should pray whether one was a Christian or a Catholic. The logic it seems to me runs something like this:

1. All Christians are saved.
2. But those slovenly idol-worshipping Catholics aren't going to be saved, are they?
3. Catholics aren't Christians.

(Aside to Amos: I'm not paying any attention to you on this thread.)

03-25-2002, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


You missed the point or simply chose to ignore it. Hebrews 9 says that Jesus had a choice
a) to sacrifice himself every year
b) to sacrifice himself once at the end of the world

As a Jew he would have had to do it every year and if he sacrificed himself for the sins of his own world it would be the end of his world and he would never have to do it again . . . because he would no longer be Jew but the anointed one. 

So Jesus sacrificed himself at the end of the world or what Christians thought would be the end of the world. You can't simply answer this by stating that nothing has changed. 2000 years later you can no longer claim as Hebrews 9:26 says that Jesus sacrificed himself at the end of the world.

It was the end of the world as a Jew for Jesus the Jew. His new world was heaven wherein he recalled the apostels and Mary theotokos by means of Assmuption.

If you say that Jesus sacrificed himself only for sins before 33 AD then you are in complete contradiction with the author of Hebrews 9. 

That has nothing to do with 33 AD but with the world of Jesus who took upon himself the sins of Joseph the carpenter which was the second nature of Jesus the Jew.

But please do tell me who other than youself considers Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrandt, Gogol as anointed ones of Yahweh?

These authors all wrote Divine Comedies and at least they themselves knew that they were. Many within the Catholic Church know this or else the Reformation would have never been or subsequently Ecumenism would be possible.

NOGO · 03-25-2002, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Amos
These authors all wrote Divine Comedies and at least they themselves knew that they were. Many within the Catholic Church know this or else the Reformation would have never been or subsequently Ecumenism would be possible.

This does not answer the question. Who other than youself consider these people to be anointed ones of Yahweh?

You are completely off topic. If you don't answer questions then it is impossible to have a debate.
I think that the bible makes it quite clear who is an anointed one of Yahweh. You are not at liberty to define your own so you can avoid the issue in a debate. You can certainly believe what you want but you must realize that you will get nowhere in a debate unless you follow some simple rules.

Quote:

As a Jew he would have had to do it every year and if he sacrificed himself for the sins of his own world it would be the end of his world and he would never have to do it again . . . because he would no longer be Jew but the anointed one.

1 Corinthians 15- 51:52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Paul here says that not everyone who he is talking to will die. Some will be changed. The dead will first be raised imperishable and WE will be changed.

Note the "WE". Paul includes himself in those who will be changed at the end of the world. We are not talking about the end of Jesus's world but the end of the world for everybody.

There are many more clear indication that what early Christians like Paul and Hebrews9 were taling about was the end of the world when the dead would be raised and Jesus would return.

Quote:

It was the end of the world as a Jew for Jesus the Jew. His new world was heaven wherein he recalled the apostels and Mary theotokos by means of Assmuption.

Wrong. You are ignoring 1 Corinthians 15- 51:52, Matthew 24 and many other NT text which clearly indicate that the end of the world that they were talking about was indeed THE END OF THE WORLD.

Quote:

because he would no longer be Jew but the anointed one.

Every anointed one of God (Yahweh) in the Bible was Hebrew and of the Jewish faith. None had to abandon this in order to become the anointed one of Yahweh. Where does this come from? If it comes from your mind without any other evidence then you can ignore the above question.

Now Amos if you wish to continue this debate you must answer the following questions otherwise we can stop it here.

Who, other than youself, considers Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrandt, Gogol as anointed ones of Yahweh?

Why does Paul in 1 Corinthians 15-51:52 say that he (and others) will not die but be changed? The issue here is changing instead of dying, not changing and then dying.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

03-25-2002, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:

You are completely off topic. If you don't answer questions then it is impossible to have a debate.
I think that the bible makes it quite clear who is an anointed one of Yahweh. You are not at liberty to define your own so you can avoid the issue in a debate. You can certainly believe what you want but you must realize that you will get nowhere in a debate unless you follow some simple rules. 

Even if I could logically convince you with scriptures you would not believe it because of your ideals.

Note the "WE". Paul includes himself in those who will be changed at the end of the world. We are not talking about the end of Jesus's world but the end of the world for everybody.

No we're not because the end of the world has come for many already just as it did for Jesus. That is exactly my point. Paul is a religionist who begins his Church here and those passages are just fundy bait to get followers to come along to help him estabilish the stream of consciousness of the flock against which salvation is found for sinners.

There are many more clear indication that what early Christians like Paul and Hebrews9 were taling about was the end of the world when the dead would be raised and Jesus would return.

I can find lots of evidence for my argument and if you have a testimony you better have died to sin because you cannot have a testament while you are still alive in sin (16-17).

It was the end of the world as a Jew for Jesus the Jew. His new world was heaven wherein he recalled the apostels and Mary theotokos by means of Assmuption.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrong. You are ignoring 1 Corinthians 15- 51:52, Matthew 24 and many other NT text which clearly indicate that the end of the world that they were talking about was indeed THE END OF THE WORLD.

Well, when the ego raptures that which remains is in heaven and this can be done in the twinkling of an eye. God cannot ever end the world after your idea because what would he do with all those good Catholics that have successfully died to their world and are in heaven now? Do you think he should make exceptions just because you read it wrong?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

because he would no longer be Jew but the anointed one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every anointed one of God (Yahweh) in the Bible was Hebrew and of the Jewish faith. None had to abandon this in order to become the anointed one of Yahweh. Where does this come from? 

That is from Revelations 21:22. No temple in the New Jerusalem, and thus no churches in heaven.

Who, other than youself, considers Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrandt, Gogol as anointed ones of Yahweh?

Their writings were inspired and just as inspired as the bible or you would understand that they were equally anointed. The image they use in their stories is identical to the image of the Gosples in which is described the comedy of Jesus and how he died to the sins of his world. I don't need many to make my point but can take you through each one of them and indicate how they wrote about their own experience in the same way. Add James Joyce and James de Mill if you want and notice that all were Catholics. In fact, the last 40 days of Joyce's world are found on the last page of his "Portrait" in which his last words were "Old father, old artficer, stand me now and ever in good stead." These words echo Jesus' "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit." This happened on April 27 and so on May 1, (three days underground) Joyce began his new life here upon earth.

Please note that I am not interested in debating scriptures with you if I have to assume your literal interpretation.

NOGO · 03-26-2002, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Amos
Their writings were inspired and just as inspired as the bible or you would understand that they were equally anointed.

Even it were true that their writings were inspired that does not make them anointed.
You can claim that Paul's writings were inspired as some do but Paul was not anointed one of Yahweh. Matthew, Marc, Luke and John may have been inspired in their writings but that does not make them anointed.

Quote:

Amos
No we're not because the end of the world has come for many already just as it did for Jesus. That is exactly my point.

NASB Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The above is part of Jesus' answer to the following question.

NASB Matthew 24
"Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

What is "end of the age" ???

Read the following and notice that the same expression is used. Also notice the similarities between Matthew 13 and Matthew 24.

NASB Matthew 13:36-42
Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, " Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is the end of the world that I am talking about. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 03-26-2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

God cannot ever end the world after your idea because what would he do with all those good Catholics that have successfully died to their world and are in heaven now? Do you think he should make exceptions just because you read it wrong?

What makes you think that there are some Catholics in heaven now?

Check Daniel 12 ...

Daniel 12:4-13
"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, " How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

Notice two things
1- the angels tells Daniel to seal up the book until the end of time AND
2- But as for you (Daniel) go your way to the end then you will enter rest and rise again for your alloted portion at the end of the age.

The angel is telling Daniel that he will die until the end of the world when he will be raised and then he will receive his alloted portion.
Paul also says that the dead remain dead until they are raised at the end of the world.

Now look at revelation ...

Revelation 22:10-12
And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Notice that the angel tells John NOT to seal up the book because the time is near.
What time? when every man is judged according to that he has done. Look at Matthew 13 and 24 again and everything will make sense.

Again John in revelation is saying that the end of the world is near. Daniel was told to seal the book and wait to the end of the world but Joh is told NOT to seal the book BECAUSE the end is near.

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03-23-2002, 01:42 PM	#21
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Boneyard Bill has it right. All fundies I have known define being a christian, as one who has experienced the "born-again" state. To the fundy born-againers, absolutely no one else can claim to be a "christian", even if they are devout catholics who go to Mass every day, never mind people who go to, whatever denomination, once in a while. Don't even mention atheists to them. The fundies have claimed the word-christian, as a term which applies to only themselves. Thus, catholics and every member of any protestant sect who is not "born-again", is not a christian and is of course going to hell. Amos, wages a battle of sorts with the fundies, by making a counter-claim that only catholics are the true followers of jesus and thus all protestants are going to, you guessed it, hell. He is fighting fundy arrogance and exclusiveness with his own version of the same in a catholic form. Makes you realise why the catholics and protestants killed eachother in the wars of the Reformation during the 16th century.

03-25-2002, 06:39 AM	#25
IvanK Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 2,016	My Catholic wife gets mightily peeved when she hears Protestants make a distinction between Catholics and Christians. Most lately it was the Rev. Robert Schuller saying one should pray whether one was a Christian or a Catholic. The logic it seems to me runs something like this: 1. All Christians are saved. 2. But those slovenly idol-worshipping Catholics aren't going to be saved, are they? 3. Catholics aren't Christians. (Aside to Amos: I'm not paying any attention to you on this thread.)

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