Celsus

Hi Mughal,

Let me add my hearty welcome to this forum as well. It's really good to hear from someone dealing with a different religion altogether. I have many Muslim friends, but have only once convinced a Muslim (who was nominal anyway) that the Quran should be taken with a pinch of salt. Having taken years to study and understand the Bible, I don't think I'll be able to spend that much time on the Quran unfortunately.

Yes it is possible, no, it is not easy. One way is to make them focus on the aspects of personal faith rather than organised religion. Another is simply to direct them in the route that took much of the sting out of Christianity: the horrors of religious persecution, the distinction between the commands of love and the commands of hate, and the emphasis on rationality and truth, rather than imposition of arguments from authority. I've met a Iranian Kurd who's also an agnostic (I think) but values Sufi and Baha'i beliefs. Perhaps you could give us a run down of the more moderate tenets of Islam.

In the UK, we're lucky that most young muslims are more concerned about flash cars and pulling than about holding rigidly to a faith resisting modernity. In Singapore, my passport country, Muslims are much more moderate, and being the dominant minority, are pretty good at tolerance. Most of them drink alcohol, so they can't exactly be sticklers for details.

My (poor) understanding is that if interpreted literally, the answer is no. If some liberal interpretations are allowed, possibly. Like the Bible, the Quran is full of condemnations of non-believers. Most Christians have taken their religion on a personal level, and pretty much ignore the more drastic ideas (with significant exception from fundamentalist Christians). The role of religion has changed in the west - from that of a socially cohesive force to one of a personal provision of meaning for the believer. Only when that changes in Muslim countries is a liberal interpretation going to be able to stand.

It depends on where you look. I don't think that Islam historically was a violent religion, after the initial expansion in the 7th century, but maybe I just don't know it that well. Many Muslims (especially in Western countries) already try to emphasise that theirs is a religion of love. That is a good sign, but one must first weaken the authority of the leaders in Islamist countries - maybe by exposing the corrupt ones and undermining blind faith in authority.

Islam was never a threat to the West until it had to come to terms with modernity. Islamic leaders (rightly) connected modernity with the West, and realising that as the threat, condemned the West. However, globalisation is not something that fatwas and pronouncements can halt. I believe that Islam will eventually come to terms with it, and will be transformed in the process, much as Christianity was. However, we can only cajole it in (hopefully) the right direction.

I have read bits of it, but not nearly enough. Perhaps that will be my next project, but I doubt that I will ever study it well enough that I can use it in debates.

Anyway, welcome again.
Joel

Edited to add: This sort of discussion would be well suited in some sort of forum, for, uh... the social sciences perhaps?

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: joejoejoe ]</p>

Mughal

Brother David,

Thanks for your kind words and supportive comments as well as the email.

I am getting so many emails I am hardly able to cope.

You know what happened today again in Kenya. That is why we need to spread the message so that people become aware of islamists' agendas and designs world wide.

We have been a little successful in bringing such matters to our nonmuslim brethren's attention and we are trying to target our muslim brethren as well but they are the people of closed societies.

These people do not participate in nonmuslims forums nor allow nonmuslim participation in their forums. What I mean is meaningful participation that is really critical of islam, its prophet or its scripture etc.

If you decide to do that yourself please follow the advice I have already posted. In addition I would say that if few of you go there together in a forum, try not to show that you already know each other and are there to do some damage to their cause. Just play it safe.

Anyway thanks again and all the best

Mughal

Mughal

Dear Joe,

Thanks for the welcome and the supportive response.

As for islam, when Muhammad began his mission people took time to realise what he was really upto. However, once they did understnad muslim agenda the advancement of islam and muslims was stopped.

Muslims became rich by waging wars on unsuspecting nearby people like bandits. They robbed them of their lands, their wealth and even themselves. This brought riches to islamic empire. When muslims could no longer conquer other people any more because they became aware of muslim designs and prepared successful defences, islam and muslims declined. Now muslims became peaceful because they were forced to be so.

If you wish to see the evidence please visit <a href="http://www.faithfreedom.org" target="_blank">http://www.faithfreedom.org</a>

You are right that islam could be revised but only if muslim societies somehow could be openned up. As things are muslims do not let foreign material get into their society. All books that are critical of islam are banned, all print or picture medias are strictly controlled for promoting islam. Anyone utters a single word against islam rots in jail. The only way to change muslim mind is through education and education thaty goes against islam is not allowed. So we must find a way to break open the muslim societies so that we could educate them.

Of course, there are muslims who do as you say but there are many who segregate themselves from comunity at large. May be you are aware of the roits in Oldham and Bradford etc etc. Muslims want things and do things which land them into isolation. For example, they want muslim schools for their children. When they set one up, they want to live nearby it. Result, obvious. They want a mosque there and they want to live near the mosque. So slowly they all end up in the same place. When poor and backward people all settle in one place there is no investment in the area by the people themselves, result no jobs.

When that happens these people blame others. Don't get me wrong I do not mean others are blameless but main problem rests with muslims themselves.

Others can also be blamed in cases where people are targeted by racist for example, so in fear people tend to live close to people with whom they find security and support. This also has similar effect. In other words some people want segregation the while others are forced into segregation. We need to tackle both the problems. Once muslims in the open socieites are opened up then through them hopefully education will spread in states of their origin as well.

On the other hand, if muslims want to live segregated lives in open societies then how can we hope that they will all by themselves open their societies in totaly closed societies?

They are bound by all the negative bonds. Like religious and tribal primitive customs that are detrimental to their well being. Their fate is sealed by feudal chiefs and religious chiefs who together exploit them to no good end.

Present situation was brought about by the USA and the West. Remember, Vietnam war? It was supported by USSR and china against USA in order to destroy democracy and market economic system. They nearly won. Now it was turn for USA and the allies. Afghanistan provided the similar pretext for bringing down communism. However, when these people supported the war they gave it name of JIHAAD ie holy war. Muslims were brain washed to do this job just like the Vietnamis. What USA and allies did not realise was that religious hatred once justified against a people internationally, would become a huge problem to handle afterwards.

After they prepared the Afghan Mujahideen ie the holy wariors, they did not realise how difficult it would be to unwind them or to unarm them. Proxy wars were used by USSR and USA, for direct confrontation would have led to nuclear war between the two. So what USA and allies did was alright for bringing down communism but now to deal with new problem which arose as a result needs careful planning and solution.

Although I will discuss things here but the better ideas would be to visit the sites.

All the best.

ju'iblex

ah ha! i knew that word sounded familiar, thankyou for explaining that, it was driving me up the wall trying to figure out where i've heard it before.

Mughal

Dear DMB,

Thanks for pointed out <a href="http://www.secularislam.org" target="_blank">http://www.secularislam.org</a> that is the site I have been posting on for last few years before the creation of <a href="http://www.faithfreedom.org" target="_blank">http://www.faithfreedom.org</a> etc. I began my own site in April this year. I have now created another site as well. I am not settled yet and the response has been overwhelming. Yes, you are right that our major concern is to help establish secular democracy in muslim states. I would love people here to participate in forums of people who originate from muslim states so that together we could help them educate themselves and breakfree from negative cycle of poverty and violence.

Thanks again and all the best.

Mughal.

Pitshade

Off to GRD...

Jobar

Mughal, my apologies again- as I stated we have had numerous instances of Muslims coming here 'in disguise' so to speak, and posting long sermons for their religion in the guise of 'logical explanations'. (For an example, <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=001382" target="_blank">here.</a>) Please don't think this site is rude and crude, or prejudiced against Islam- normally we are quite polite and reasonable, and only rarely insult people gratuitously.

We have other Muslim members- the next time I talk to Baalthazaq I'll direct him to your thread here.

Buffman

Mughal

Welcome and thank you for the extremely interesting and informative information. I sincerely wish you every success in your efforts to bring a critical thinking/reasoned secularism to those who have been mentally conditioned and enslaved by the Islamic religious genie.