Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 04-02-2003, 03:52 PM

I started this thread at Christian Forums and the YEC's side tracked it to avoid defining "kinds". I had also hoped some other posters could provide examples of weird animals that "kind" is more difficult to guage than "doggie" kind or "kitty" kind, but that didn't happen either.

So I am going to post a few "What Kind is IT?" examples and I hope others will do so as well since I am sure there are many I have never heard of. If we get enough, or if anyone else is interested, I may compile them for an article.

One YEC took a guess on this one and said "snake kind", but since it is a legless lizard, he then had no idea how to classify it. My question...what makes one animal a lizard kind, and one a snake kind, and how would a creationist differentiate between the two? What characteristics are used to determine "kind"?

This is an echidna. It has one posterior opening only through which is eliminates and reproduces called a cloaca, a characteristic shared only with fish, reptiles and amphibians. It also lays eggs like fish, reptiles, amphibians, and birds but they nurse their young like mammals, though rather than having teats, they ooze milk out of special glands.

The platypus shares all the characteristics listed for echidna, and has the added distinction of being one of only two venomous mammals.

The other venemous mammal is the short tail shrew...its venom is very similar to that of a cobra.

So which kind are the above? Is there a venomous mammal kind, or an egg laying mammal kind or are they each their own kind?

These are civets...please any creationist tell me what kind you would put these in! It is theorized the common ancestor of cats and dogs was similar to this animal.

Some other posters presented some great comparisons of chromosomal differences among rabbit species and "horsey kinds" which I will post once I get permission.

Thanks in advance to anyone who will help with more examples, or any creationist who wants to be the first ever to define "kind" and be able to apply that definition to these animals.

charlie d · 04-02-2003, 04:10 PM

I always thought these critters were pretty weird:

Some are fully acquatic, some almost completely terrestrial. Some are oviparous, other viviparous. They can get up to 15-20 inches long. They're caecilians, and they are amphibians. Go figure.

Viti · 04-02-2003, 04:11 PM

Thanks for the example charlie, and I hope you are enjoying II! What is that thing anyway, some species of salamander?

beastmaster · 04-02-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea

One YEC took a guess on this one and said "snake kind", but since it is a legless lizard, he then had no idea how to classify it. My question...what makes one animal a lizard kind, and one a snake kind, and how would a creationist differentiate between the two? What characteristics dare used to determine "kind"?

Don't YECs think that *all* snakes are nothing but legless lizards, thanks to god's curse of the serpent in Gen. 3:14? IOW, I think snakes and lizards are supposed to be one "kind."

Oh yeah, and the Devil created the echidna and platypus to confuse us and challenge our faith.

charlie d · 04-02-2003, 04:53 PM

LadyShea:
Caecilians (aka Gymnophiona) are a separate order of Amphibians, just like Anurans (frogs and toads) and Urodela (newts etc). They just forgot how to grow legs, or maybe Noah ran out of space and had to stuff them in the ark's crawlspace for the length of the flood.

RufusAtticus · 04-02-2003, 04:56 PM

They're all the same friggin kind: biotes!

Viti · 04-02-2003, 05:02 PM

What's a biote?

And I guess I should have specified...What BIBLICAL or CREATIONIST kind is it

RufusAtticus · 04-02-2003, 05:07 PM

Biota is the taxa that incorporates all of life on the planet. A biote is a member of Biota.

Craig · 04-02-2003, 05:38 PM

Platypus (Platypi? Platypuses?) are venomous? Any guesses as to what that is for? AFAIK they are not carnivorous, and don't have much in the way of teeth so how is the poison delivered?

lpetrich · 04-02-2003, 05:47 PM

A spur on the hind ankle.

04-02-2003, 03:52 PM	#1
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	What "kind" is it? I started this thread at Christian Forums and the YEC's side tracked it to avoid defining "kinds". I had also hoped some other posters could provide examples of weird animals that "kind" is more difficult to guage than "doggie" kind or "kitty" kind, but that didn't happen either. So I am going to post a few "What Kind is IT?" examples and I hope others will do so as well since I am sure there are many I have never heard of. If we get enough, or if anyone else is interested, I may compile them for an article. One YEC took a guess on this one and said "snake kind", but since it is a legless lizard, he then had no idea how to classify it. My question...what makes one animal a lizard kind, and one a snake kind, and how would a creationist differentiate between the two? What characteristics are used to determine "kind"? This is an echidna. It has one posterior opening only through which is eliminates and reproduces called a cloaca, a characteristic shared only with fish, reptiles and amphibians. It also lays eggs like fish, reptiles, amphibians, and birds but they nurse their young like mammals, though rather than having teats, they ooze milk out of special glands. The platypus shares all the characteristics listed for echidna, and has the added distinction of being one of only two venomous mammals. The other venemous mammal is the short tail shrew...its venom is very similar to that of a cobra. So which kind are the above? Is there a venomous mammal kind, or an egg laying mammal kind or are they each their own kind? These are civets...please any creationist tell me what kind you would put these in! It is theorized the common ancestor of cats and dogs was similar to this animal. Some other posters presented some great comparisons of chromosomal differences among rabbit species and "horsey kinds" which I will post once I get permission. Thanks in advance to anyone who will help with more examples, or any creationist who wants to be the first ever to define "kind" and be able to apply that definition to these animals.

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04-02-2003, 04:10 PM	#2
charlie d Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: here and there Posts: 56	I always thought these critters were pretty weird: Some are fully acquatic, some almost completely terrestrial. Some are oviparous, other viviparous. They can get up to 15-20 inches long. They're caecilians, and they are amphibians. Go figure.

04-02-2003, 04:11 PM	#3
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Thanks for the example charlie, and I hope you are enjoying II! What is that thing anyway, some species of salamander?

04-02-2003, 04:53 PM	#5
charlie d Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: here and there Posts: 56	LadyShea: Caecilians (aka Gymnophiona) are a separate order of Amphibians, just like Anurans (frogs and toads) and Urodela (newts etc). They just forgot how to grow legs, or maybe Noah ran out of space and had to stuff them in the ark's crawlspace for the length of the flood.

04-02-2003, 04:56 PM	#6
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	They're all the same friggin kind: biotes!

04-02-2003, 05:02 PM	#7
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	What's a biote? And I guess I should have specified...What BIBLICAL or CREATIONIST kind is it

04-02-2003, 05:07 PM	#8
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Biota is the taxa that incorporates all of life on the planet. A biote is a member of Biota.

04-02-2003, 05:38 PM	#9
Craig Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,058	Platypus (Platypi? Platypuses?) are venomous? Any guesses as to what that is for? AFAIK they are not carnivorous, and don't have much in the way of teeth so how is the poison delivered?

04-02-2003, 05:47 PM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	A spur on the hind ankle.

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