MadMordigan

Geo:

What you seem to be missing is that arguments pointing out the inconsitencies and moral failures of your god are identical to literary criticism of any other fictional character.

One can have a discussion about the motivations and psyches of Darth Vader, Micheal Corleone or Colonel Kurtz without believing in the reality of these characters.

Mageth

The difference being, with Michael Corleone and Colonel Kurtz (the horror!) at least, there are real-world parallels to draw from.

When you introduce magical characters, as in god or Darth Vader, the defender can always conveniently fall back on magical answers to criticisms. "Of course you can't see god; he's invisible!"

HelenM

I know this wasn't the point that you were making, but, it's not really that simple or clear-cut, is it? In other words, there's no guarantee that the best qualified candidate will get the job because of subjective unknown factors. So I think that atheists and theists alike would be uncertain as to the outcome of a job interview, until they know...and if they don't get the job (or if they do!) they may never exactly know why.

I'm not trying to use this as a reason why 'a guiding Hand is necessary'. I'm just saying how it is, in my experience, with jobs and in fact with life in general.

take care
Helen

Mageth

HelenM:

No it's not that simple. Of course, I was oversimplifying; my point being if one doesn't make the effort to become qualified and apply for a job, no miracle is going to get it for you(well...execpting Dubya). And I interview and make hiring recommendations on a lot of people; we do our best to attempt to pick the most qualified person. One of the "subjective" things you mention are our general impressions on how the person would fit in our work environment. No miracles required there.

HelenM

I understand - and those things are hard to explain to interviewees and one wouldn't necessarily want to try, in all cases.

Most Christians I know who are at all sensible realize that prayer is not a substitute for job interview preparation, etc. But I would expect them to pray as well as doing reasonable preparation, since they are Christians.

take care
Helen

Shake

Why do I have to use a "weak atheist definition?" Can't I use a strong atheist definition like:
DENY = "I know God doesn't exist."
I deny God.
Because they're hoping for the best: that there is hope that we can be (re)converted to at least belief in their god. They're trying to be optimistic, and want to 'save' us.

Tom Sawyer

HelenM,

Well, that gets to the question of what's the point of the prayer? Granted, there's all that God helps those who help themselves nonsense, but if the preparation is necessary to get the job, what purpose does God serve in the equation?

If two Christians are applying for the same job and both pray, does God make a choice between who needs/deserves it more, or does the HR Manager make that choice? If it's the latter, how does God matter in this situation; if it's the former, why do I have a well-paying job when there are so many educated, unemployed Christians?

I just don't see how God is in any way relevant.

galiel

Will they blame God if they don't? If not, why not?

No, it is because there is no evidence to suggest that God had anything to do with it, any more than the Tooth Fairy had anything to do with it.

But Christians will not blame God for failing to deliver? Where is the logic there? How is it any different than psychic hucksters, who blithely ignore all their many predictive misses and only note their occasional hits?

No, Helen, it all depends upon what one concludes based upon the evidence. I submit that you live MOST of your life that way, except for an irrational blind-spot.

For example, If you are crossing the street, you look both ways--to your left first. You do that because logic and experience (both yours and acquired from others) has taught you the empirical consequences of merely closing your eyes and praying for safety when you cross. If you travel to the UK, you will make note of the fact that they drive on the wrong side of the road, and you will make a conscious effort to look to you right first--otherwise, the best outcome is furious screeching of brakes followed by a honking horn. You will not willingly continue to do the opposite (although habits are hard to resist, they *can* be overcome with sufficient effort). You don't simply wish for a sunny day and then go outdoors in your shorts, you watch the weather forcast, and if the pagan scientific doohickies tell you it is going to be 40 degrees and rainy, you dress accordingly.

Now, before the development of modern scientific understanding of weather phenomena, you might, indeed, have prayed for a sunny day and known no better--but you would still have stuck a hand outdoors and checked the temp. Living life logically according to empirical evidence is neither counter-intuitive nor a new development of science.

Only when it comes to this question about supernatural mysticism, about the existence of a non-epirically resolvable nontestable God, have you been so Pavlovian conditioned that you resist logic, resist your normal expectation of empirical evidence, and blindly believe.

Claiming "God saved me" when one is the sole survivor of a catastrophe that killed thousands is not just a matter of "you believe this, I believe that." It is not only irrational and logically inconsistent (you will not say, by the same token, that "God killed the others"), it is also inconsistent with the way even the most avid believer actually lives most of their daily life in this empirical world.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

K

I think it's because they realize that God would be cruel and unjust to damn us for truly and honestly not believing in something. So, when the facts of the world invalidate belief, it's time to change the facts. Hence, everyone really does believe in God, it's just that some use their free will to reject Him.

Not Prince Hamlet

I deny the Judeo-Christian God exactly as much as I deny Zeus, Marduk, and Santa Claus. I don't have it in specifically for one fictious character over another.

Jeff