Jamie_L

In response to a post by GeoTheo <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000635&p=10" target="_blank">here</a>:

This seems to be a common theme, sometimes implicit, sometimes explicit, among Christians (and possibly other theists). It seems that a good number of Christians believe atheists REJECT God rather than DENY God. As a consequence, all us atheists are lying about our true feelings and motives, at least to others, possibly to ourselves.

Definitions for the purpose of this thread:
REJECT = "I believe in God, but I don't like God. I renounce God."
DENY = "I don't believe God exists" (or your own favorite weak atheist definition)

So, for this thread, the questions are:
1) Why do so many Christians think we REJECT God when we say we DENY God?
2) For the Christians out there, what's your opinion? Do you believe me when I say I deny God? If not, why not?

Jamie

MrDarwin

Although I responded half-jokingly to Theo in the other thread, I'm actually quite serious: I think that many of the theists who come to these discussions, deep down, don't really believe in God (or at the very least have serious doubts) but want to believe so badly that they come here asserting the existence of God, hoping to convince themselves (not us) of its truth.

I suppose I have about as much basis for saying this as Theo has in claiming that atheists, whether they admit it or not, do believe in God.

bonduca

Perhaps if they allowed themselves to grasp the idea that some of us just don't believe in a god, they might begin to question their own faith.

Or it could be that such people can only imagine a life lived in the way they choose to define it. Like the way a dog can't understand why you may not really want his rawhide chewie...though at least we know the chewie exists.

GeoTheo

I like to take people at their word. When people like Perchance say they have never believed in God, I am inclined to believe them.
But when people continue to make emotionally charged statements in which they appear to be griping about God and criticizing God, they seem to betray their claim that they simply don't believe in God. They seem to have a lot of emotional baggage attached that wouldn't be there in an unbiased observer.

Rusting Car Bumper

That depends on what those terms mean? What does it mean to "deny god" or "reject god"?

I simply am not concinced of Gods existence. If someone wants to call that "deny" instead of "reject" or vice versa then they can have that.

Many Christians believe all sorts of things. Many Christians think atheism is a worldview. They think atheism always means "You have an absolute belief that gods don't exist."

DC

bonduca

Well, I gripe about the fact that this fictional character is presented to me as "loving," when in fact, he appears to be quite nasty and unpleasant. I'm not too pleased to find that in rejecting this fictional creation, I am subjected in slights regarding my morals, my patriotism, and my general worth as a human being.

So I am not an "unbiased observer," I am affected by this and I have reactions to it. That does not render my perceptions invalid, nor does it imply belief in the thing that I deny, any more than my heated condemnation of Nazism makes me a follower of Hitler.

Rusting Car Bumper

That's part of making fun of definitions of God and showing what an absurd concept it is.

Biblical discussions calling god an evil tyrant is simply meant to counter the claim that he's a loving God by using the very text that is supposed to support that point. That is, that the claimant (the believer) doesn't even honestly pay attention to their own source of evidence.

DC

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]</p>

Jamie_L

Okay. I caught that one in the previous thread. I did see how it might seem that way without a close reading of context and even more likely to seem that way if I choose my words poorly.

I think what happens here is some atheists (myself included) enjoy engaging in these (to us) hypothetical discussions about "what if the stuff we don't believe in where true". The point of these discussions (for us) is usually to point out one or more of the little details that add up to us not believing these things. Of course, debates are debates, sometimes we get carried away, tempers flare, and viola! Confusion reigns.

Lesson learned.

Jamie

Starboy

McDarwin, I agree with you. I can see why a Christian would hand out on a Christian board, and I can see how a Christian would come to an atheist board to proselytize, but it is hard for me to understand why a Christian would lurk or just hang around unless they were borderline Christian or masochists and liked the abuse.

Starboy

sandlewood

There are two reasons I can think of right off why it might sound like griping. Atheists talk about the evil that God does to point out the contradiction between his supposed omnibenevolence and what action he actually takes. This weakens the argument that God actually exists. It doesn’t come from emotionally hating God.

Also, some of the “griping” may be directed not at a god but at the religion itself. From my reading here, I think some people feel like Christianity had a negative effect on their life and they are none too happy about it. As for me, I've never believed a god existed, even as a child. So I don’t have any sort of resentment. I just don’t see any good reason to think a god exists.