Goliath

agapeo,

Apology accepted.

Correct! I always endeavor to say exactly what I mean. So, if I don't say that all xians act in a certain way, then I'm not saying that all xians act in a certain way.

I am not. You are stuffing words in my mouth.

To your credit, however, I should've reworded my first post in this thread (as I've already said).

I shall do so.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath

Helen,

I've been a xian for almost half of my life, thank you very much. I know more about xianity than I will likely ever need to know (much less ever want to know).

Sincerely,

Goliath

HelenM

Whether you want to know any more Christianity or not, is your choice and I respect that.

My point was that what you said is not what is taught at my church or any other Bible-believing Christian church I've been to.

It's not what I recognize as 'Bible-believing Christianity'.

I've never heard of children being taught by any Christians that they will go to hell for not learning material.

That doesn't prove it doesn't happen, but I've never heard of it - that's what I'm saying.

take care,
Helen

Perchance

Hi Helen,

Have you heard Christians telling children they will go to hell for:

-asking questions of their faith?
-Following other gods?
-Not loving God?

Maybe it's not so, but from the way your post was worded, it seemed as if there were some things that you had heard children told they would go to hell for.

And that's pretty messed-up, in my view. To deserve eternal torment for finite actions?

-Perchance.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

HelenM

I've never heard anything I'd call an 'intimidating' tone taken with children, such as "you'd better...or else...".

When the theology is explained to them it's probably presented more 'positively' than 'you're hell-bound' i.e. "Jesus died for you so you can go to heaven".

To be honest I'm not entirely sure what's said but I am glad that the teachers are very kind to the children, as best I can tell. Of course they are going to teach what the church believes. But speaking for myself, it makes a difference to me how they teach it. (Just as, I care about how the schoolteachers treat my children...)

However, I suppose other people here hate what's being taught by Bible-believing churches so they won't care whether it's taught in a kind way or not...they will still see it as abhorrent.

Well, I already knew that you reject the theology.

Helen

Perchance

Well, that's good.

Do children come up with questions about hell?

The difference being, I think, that parents and students have a great deal of power (at least where I teach) to protest a teacher's unfair treatement of them. There's a whole grade appeal procedure in place, for example, so that a student who doesn't think I graded her paper fairly can go through and get her paper read by impartial people.

I must admit that I don't think there are similar procedures in place for churches, or even religious schools. When I was told as a child that I would go to hell for not believing in the Adam and Eve story, my parents pulled me from the Catholic kindergarten. There was nothing else they could do.

Hate...abhorrent...

I think there may be some people who do. I don't. I don't think it automatically has negative consequences, either. On the other hand, I don't think it has good consequences just because it's church, either, and I find it profoundly saddening when churches do encourage exclusivism and intimidation.

I also think that beliefs should be put on equal footing, so that there is no special protection in place for religion. Religious beliefs should be questioned and chosen, I think, just as well as political views and views on academic subjects are.

And I think that people who use intimidation and emotionally scarring techniques on children should be prosecuted.

That doesn't mean it happens in your church. But I don't think it should happen at all. Right to religion doesn't, in my opinion, extend to abusing children, physically or emotionally.

-Perchance.

HelenM

Church is voluntary so a parent could always go find another church, or quit church altogether if he/she is unhappy with the way his/her children are being treated.

I agree. However, one has to define what is 'abuse' and if anyone here says that allreligious teaching is abusive because of content, I wouldn't agree with that. But I would totally respect their right to keep their child away from all religious teaching, if they feel that way.

Helen

Goliath

HelenM,

So what?

Irrelevant. Any xian who does teach such things is just as much of a xian as you are. Hitler was just as much of a xian as my mother is, and the pope is just as much of a xian as I was before I became an atheist: No more, no less.

The "No True Scotsman" fallacy is a fallacy, no matter how it is used.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Perchance

Hi Helen,

No, I wouldn't agree that all religious teaching is abusive. But I think it should be more closely investigated if someone claims it is, not ignored because it's church. Religious beliefs are no more special than any other kind of belief.

I do think that people who want church teaching for their children might feel pressured to keep their kids in church. Depending on where they live, they might not have any other options. I would feel just as much for parents who were having to drive their kids miles out of the way to some different Sunday School, just to make sure their kids wouldn't be screamed at about hell, as I would for parents who had to drive their kids miles out of the way for quality education.

-Perchance.

HelenM

So, it's not going to factor into whether I am comfortable with my children being taught at my church, is it?

Goliath I said nothing about who is a true Christian so I don't see how I could possibly have committed the fallacy as you claim.

You seem to have thought I said "Anyone who teaches that is not a true Christian". But I didn't.

If you are seriously claiming that Bible believing Christians teach and believe someone who doesn't learn material will go to hell for that reason then it should be easy for you to find me a mainstream Bible-believing Christian website that says so - I would be interested in seeing such a statement (and it cannot be a parody site! )

As far as I'm concerned I explained what the theology actually is, regarding this, in my first post to you on this thread.

take care
Helen

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>