HelenM

My children go to public school and they go to church.

I suppose a lot of people here would say they're getting 'brainwashed' at church.

Aren't they getting brainwashed at school as well? Or is that different?

If they are, is it ok because what they are being taught is 'true'?

(They are in the 2nd and 4th grade, fwiw)

Helen

Bible Humper

Hello Helen,

Your kids are given food for thought in school, the church gives them commands regarding digestion.

Reading, Righting, and 'Rithmatic lack the emotional component crucial to religious instruction.

K

Helen:

There is definitely a lot of brainwashing going on in schools. I think it's an abuse, but it's going to happen unless each teacher is regulated to a ridiculous degree.

I'll definitely be teaching my children to think for themselves and to question what they hear. My wife an I have also spent a great deal of time and energy finding schools where these same ideas are taught.

Perhaps you and your church are different, but I'm not aware of too many churches that teach independent thought and questioning the Bible.

christ-on-a-stick

I think someone here summed it up in another thread by saying (paraphrased) that "education is teaching you how to think; indoctrination is teaching you what to think".

sandlewood

I’ve heard of some people following Christianity as a nice philosophy of life. If it were taught that way then perhaps it would less of a controversy. But if you’re going to teach children that it’s the actual truth about reality, then I think you’ll have a problem. You’ll have children in science class learning the scientific method. But then 45 minutes later they’ll be in Christian class where the teacher will be saying “the scientific method is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn’t apply to the existence of God” without explaining why the arbitrary choice was made not to apply the scientific method to the existence of God. How can you teach scientific methods when children learn they are free to disregard them whenever it’s convenient?

So first you have to decide for yourself what constitutes “knowledge”. Do you have a standard method for acquiring knowledge?

Another problem with teaching Christianity in schools is: which brand of Christianity do you teach? There are an awful lot. Some Christians visiting this board believe that atheists won’t go to Hell. Some believe there isn’t any Hell at all. Some believe there is. Some believe in the trinity and others do not. Some believe that “omniscience” doesn’t mean that God knows absolutely everything.

Toefur

Is Christianity taught in American schools, then? I thought that wasn't allowed over there?

It's disturbing that it is taught in public schools here, because it is taught as the truth.

My 6 year old brother came home from school once and I asked him what he did at school that day and one of the things he did was, "We had RE (Religious Education"

Religious education, okay... I asked him what they do in that class, "We talked about Jesus and God and..." and so on and so forth.

After more questioning (I should have been able to remember it was the same for me when I went to school) I found out that it's not religious 'education' at all, it is simply the Christians telling all the kids whats what.

They don't say, "This is what we believe, but... other people choose to believe things, and we can't even proove our god"

They tell them (along the lines of), "God created us, we are supposed to love God, Jesus died for us, we are sinners, we love Jesus, when we die we go to heaven".

They aren't told that it's a possibility, they don't tell them why they believe it. It's just, "The Bible says this, and its true, because we know it is".

I find that really disturbing, because well... it should be obvious.

I suppose it could be worse though, It's only one half hour religious education class per week (I think), but they do start it from their first or second year, and carry on tthrough all of primary school.

I think I went a little off topic with that, my apologies.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Toefur ]</p>

HelenM

Actually, it's not that simple. There's lots of 'emotional' component to social science, to the stories my kids read, to the teamwork things they do, etc.

All day long they are learning things at school that are not one of the three Rs.

sandlewood my kids are in public, not Christian, school. I wasn't really asking about teaching Christianity in schools. I think what I was asking about is whether kids are educated or indoctrinated at school. And if they are indoctrinated then how different really is it from what happens to kids at church, except that most people here abhor the content of what children are taught at church?

K thanks - I think you understand. Can I ask how old your children are? My kids go to the local school across the street. The schools around here have a fairly good reputation but I doubt that reflects whether they teach kids to think for themselves or not - at least, to the extent I care about that. I hope that we (me and my husband) can help make sure our children learn how to think for themselves.

Helen

Ab_Normal

Yup, I've seen that in my daughter's education (she's in fourth grade). For instance, our school district does "character education" by singling out a trait every month to discuss - this month it's "responsibility". Otherwise, I can't proffer much of an opinion. I'll have to ask my husband what he's seen in the classroom - he's been able to volunteer at least two hours a week for the last four years.

K

Helen,

One is four and the other isn't one yet. Our four year old attends a school that starts at age two and continues through the upper grades. There were many things my wife and I liked about it - the fact that the different ages are mixed and the emphasis placed on independent thinking and personal responsibility really stood out.

Ironically, most of the teachers and administrators are Catholic and do not try to hide that fact from the kids or anyone else. My wife and I were ok with this because of the emphasis on critical thinking. There is also a very diverse population of students with many different backgrounds, so the exposure to Catholicism isn't anywhere close to all-encompassing doctrination one might expect in a Catholic school.

sandlewood

Perhaps I should have left out the last part of my post.

What are your definitions of brainwashing and indoctrination? Is the only difference between brainwashing and not brainwashing that what you are teaching is true?

To me, there is a different between what happens to kids at public school (at least as a later age) and what happens at church. In public school, kids are taught what is generally believed to be true but also that they are free to challenge and even overturn any accepted belief. In church, this is not how things are taught as far as I know.

My underlying point was that if we teach children a method of determining the truth about reality rather than only teaching them what we think reality is, then I think that helps to avoid brainwashing. But that then raises the question of how we decided the method was correct. Did we arbitrarily decide that scientific methods are correct and then indoctrinate the children to believe that they are? (I’d better leave that as a rhetorical question to keep things short.)

For very young children, this may not be possible because they aren’t old enough to understand methods of determining knowledge. They only know facts you tell them. So for very young children, perhaps it is brainwashing depending on your definition. But you’d better have support for the facts you tell them. What you teach them at a young age should be consistent with what you teach them at an older age. And at an older age you need to justify those facts.

I once heard it suggested that gullibility is an evolved trait in human beings. Those offspring that were more gullible were more likely to listen unquestioningly to their parents and were more likely to stay alive long enough to reproduce.