Orpheous99

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

orphy straight out admits he wont read up on the koran. so all his comments in future are ignored.

I see that you're just like most theists in that you have a very selective and faulty memory. This is a sign that you have absolutely nothing to back up your beliefs with.

I've got news for you, I have read much of the Qu'ran and I have even stated so many times here. It reads like bad and disjointed poetry and it has no context. I reads like it was written by someone on drugs who is trying to sound profound and mostly failing.

Orpheous99

Many are. I'm an secular humanist agnostic.

HelenM

Don I agree with you (at the risk of indicting myself in some way that you will probably spot, if there is one ) that jojo-sa is in denial of the true nature and ramifications and effects of Islam.

jojo-sa, you may be a man of peace yourself but if your religion inspires many otherwise then people here are not going to be satisfied with your saying 'it's possible to be a Muslim and be a really nice, peace-loving, reasonable, person'. They are still going to see Islam as dangerous if it incites many people to types of violence and hatred that they abhor.

[Note: I did it again. I clicked on "Edit" instead of "Reply with quote." I have attempted to reconstruct Helen's post as best I could. Her last sentence is missing, however. My sincere apologies to Helen. --Don--]

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Don Morgan ]</p>

Orpheous99

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

how do you(humanist aka atheists) recommend we deal with these issues for eg

1. inheritance

2. alcholics

3. the murderer

4. the oppresor

5. child rapists

6. adultery

7. drug problem

8. poverty

etc.

The same way we have always done. We're just more honest about it's source. You have to make up fairytales about some skyfather to justify it to yourselves.

i can tell you each socalled secular country has its own system and to date none of the systems work. this is easily proven or showed to you.

The countries in North America are primarily secular and we are far better off than the majority of theistic countries.

and please dont ask me how islam deals with this as an answer. this i will tell you as much as my knowledge on the topics go.( i dont claim to know everything)

In fact you know nwxt to nothing about the real world, just like most theists.

just answer my questions so i can see how you (humanists aka atheist function) straight from the horses mouth.

We have been answering you. You just don't like the answers since they show that what you believe in is a load of crap.

RyanS2

jo-jo, I hope you're happy, I had to re-read the Hadith's for you. Not only have I read the entire Qur'an, (not yet in Arabic, though I'm taking college classes on it this summer, I'll keep you updated on my progress), I re-read the Hadiths. Here's the Hadiths' I'm talking about.

Muhammad and the young lady:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated by Hisham's father:

"Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:

"The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were in Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my menses."

Some people have claimed that this is a fake, but honestly, who would make up something like this? A man in his 50's fondling his pre-teen wife during her menstrual cycles? Not mention consumating that marriage.

Satan living in the nose:

Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Number 516:

The Prophet said, "If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all night."

Can a Muslim be judged for killing an infidel?

Volume 4, Number 283:

"...we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well. I asked, 'What is written on this paper?' He replied, (the regulations of), "blood money, the freeing of captives, and the judgement that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."

addenum:

On your comments about having sex with a 9 year old being okay when you're in your fifties, because at the time it was 'okay', the early Romans/Greeks/Jews practiced human sacrifice as well, but that's not a convincing argument for them being okay.

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: RyanS2 ]</p>

-DM-

Helen:

You have probably tainted yourself for all time to come by agreeing with me. And -- believe it or not -- I agree with you (which may taint you even more so).

Right on!

Looked at from the other side of the fence, Muslims who get bombed by so-called Christians (and please note that I am NOT saying that I am opposed to the bombing in Afghanistan) are not going to think of Christianity as promoting a "turn-the-other-cheek" mentality.

--Don--

-DM-

I said previously: "It depends on whether you are talking about atheists in general (those who simply disbelieve in gods) or whether you are talking about atheists who are also humanists, atheists who are concerned with the interests and welfare of human beings."

That should make it clear, I think, that I claim that some atheists are secular humanists and that some secular humanists are atheists.

--Don--

-DM-

jojo-sa:

I'm beginning to think of you as a troll. You ask questions which involve very complex answers (at least for thinking persons who are not bound to follow some alleged holy book revealed through a so-called prophet by a nonexistent god) when you could do some research of your own and answer those questions for yourself. Take your own advice. Do some reading on humanistic ethics. Use the list I gave you as a starting point. But before you do, supposing YOU tell US how you would deal with the issues that you mention. (And keep in mind that by reason of the fact that I lived and worked in Iran, I have some idea of how those issues are ACTUALLY handled in at least one Muslim country.)

--Don--

DMB

Jojo-sa: don't forget the reading I recommended too.

Orpheous99

He isn't interested in the truth, he is only interested in religion and we all know that there is very little real truth in that.

To his way of thinking if any non-believer reads the Qu'ran that they will automatically convert to Islam and drop to their kness and beg allah for forgiveness because jojo-sa is conditioned to believe that the Qu'ran is the absolute truth and only a mad man would deny this. So, when we say that we have read it he just can't understand why we aren't Muslims now. He just doesn't get it that he is the puppet who is having his strings pulled. Are all young Islamic men this easy to control, and be deceived, by their clerics to the point that they can be ordered to throw their lives away as martyrs (note correct spelling is : M O R O N)?

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>