Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Born Free · 01-28-2002, 02:08 AM

This video doing the rounds in the UK amongst other things advocating a jihad to wipe out atheisim. Muslims wonder why jihad is seen as a holy war by westerners, can you blame us when all the evidence points out that this is exactly what it is????

"Screenings have been arranged both in private homes and, often after prayers, in mosques. Many showings have been timed so that young people, students and schoolchildren, can attend. Several are alleged to have taken place in Finsbury Park mosque in north London where the radical cleric Abu Hamza often leads prayers".

Seems to me that you think we aren't educated enough to work out for ourselves what jihad and other terms really mean to a muslim. In public a lot of community leaders will deny Islam is a violent religion whilst allowing things like this video to circulate in their mosque????Do you really think we are this stupid to believe it? Yet some of you come here to make out we are dumb if we can't work out what Islam is all about, Islam according to whom??? If Islam were truly a non violent peace loving religion there would be no islamic terrorists.

The thing that is really bothering me is that although this video is illegal here and despite the fact police have names of who is copying it and making it available there have been no arrests. There comes a time when political correctness goes too far I think. Freedom of religion act??? Where do you draw the line??? No wonder there is so much unrest here. When in Rome??? Nah don't apply to muslims does it???

I don't have a problem with muslims practising their own peculiar brand of religion so long as they do it quietly, in their own homes, in their own mosques but when I see things like this it makes me want to vomit.

<a href="http://www.observer.co.uk/islam/story/0,1442,640288,00.html" target="_blank">video story hot off the press</a>

lpetrich · 01-28-2002, 02:27 AM

Also, a lot of Muslims turn evasive about militant Islamists. Where are the leading Muslim clerics who have taken out full-page ads in newspapers calling for a jihad against Osama bin Laden? Yes, jihad.

jojo-sa · 01-28-2002, 03:17 AM

<a href="http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/showsubcategory.jsp?display=on&cat=18" target="_blank">http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/showsubcategory.jsp?display=on&cat=18</a>

Read this site it will answer all your queastions on Jihad.

Waning Moon Conrad · 01-28-2002, 03:19 AM

There are two governments that make my blood boil with their despicable cowardice. The British and the Australian.

Here we let an imam in Western Sydney spout on with his Islamic hatred for the west (and hence Australia) and the government won't throw him out, nor those who howl their assent in his mosque.

I read about this video in England and it really seems as if the British police and government are too gutless to do anything.

How far will it go? Will the British police suppress evidence if Pakistani youths start murdering English ones?

Will that insipid wingnut headed Prince Charles continue cooing over them?

I think that one day, there will be a holocaust in the west, preceded by a jackboot sale at Kmart.

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Waning Moon Conrad ]</p>

Born Free · 01-28-2002, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
<strong><a href="http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/showsubcategory.jsp?display=on&cat=18" target="_blank">http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/showsubcategory.jsp?display=on&cat=18</a>

Read this site it will answer all your queastions on Jihad.</strong>

Yeah run away as per usual........why can't you lot live and let live???

Just for the record my own son is very friendly with a muslim boy, been to his house, the boy has been to ours, I welcomed him with open arms and I will continue to do so. He is a lovely little boy, very polite with us and a pleasure to have round. I worry about the poor thing, if this is getting round mosques what does that say to him??? Who knows how many mosques it's been to?? What mixed messages he must be getting, right I have this friend but I should be hating this boy since his parents are atheists and he is being brought up different from me. Religion isn't an issue at his house but it is in mine, am I to hate this person or like him or try to convert him??

I get seriously annoyed at how much leeway is given to Islam in this country to the extent that we see recruitment in our country for young muslims to go fight the holy bloody war. Such a waste of human life. There was a small piece in the tabloid about a former british muslim now living in Pakistan openly and blatantly bragging about how he trained up to 200 British youths for the taliban. This was not broadcast on our network news.

How is this relationship going to turn out with this muslim child??? Mine has been brought up to respect others, regardless of colour or creed, not to judge the book by the cover to live and let live as far as he can. However he has also been taught that respect isn't automatic and he should recieve the same courtesy. So far he has but in 5 years time is this little muslim boy going to turn on my son?? Sounds melodramatic but is it really??

It's worrying that's what it is.

I will state now again as I have many times that my problem is with the religion not the colour of skin; I have to put this in because my society now demands it. Speak out about islam now and you're racist. Well I am not racist but I am concerned and getting more so every time I see things like this. Sorry if anyone doesn't like that but this is the end result of too much leeway.

GunnerJ · 01-28-2002, 05:18 AM

Quote:

I don't have a problem with muslims practising their own peculiar brand of religion so long as they do it quietly, in their own homes, in their own mosques but when I see things like this it makes me want to vomit.

"I don't have a problem with gays as long as they act straight in public. What they do in their own homes is their business, but seeing two guys holding hands makes me want to vomit."

Born Free · 01-28-2002, 05:23 AM

You taking the piss?? Did you read the article?? I don't have a problem with what religion they practice so long as it doesn't advocate violence toward anyone or do you think that's alright??

jojo-sa · 01-28-2002, 05:27 AM

The site will expalin much more detail on Islamic Jihad.

In my opinion many Muslims should read it too.It seems many are getting the whole term wrong.

Your fears are real and understandable and in my opinion it scares me too.

On the basic idea of Jihad for those who do not want to read the site.

It means striving hard in the path of the Creator.

It is more a fight against the inner self to ward off the bad things.

It is also at certain times an actual battle (war) in the sense like the 2nd world war was a war.

these are under certain conditions (for completeness you have to read the site mentioend earlier)

1. Jihad is a declared war against another people. Jihad does not cover any covert or hypocritical actions of a Muslim state against another. Thus, Jihad does not cover actions like secretly sponsoring terrorist activities against the adversaries, even if such adversaries are, in the opinion of the Islamic state, guilty of persecuting its citizens or any particular segment of its citizens.

2.A Muslim state cannot carryout Jihad, against an adversary state, in violation of any mutual or international agreements. This ethical condition, according to the Qur'an, would remain applicable even if the adversary state is clearly guilty of persecuting its citizens and even if the persecuted Muslims have called upon the Muslim state for help.

3.While in a state of war against another nation, Muslims cannot, under any circumstances, make the non-combatant peoples of that nation (including men, women and children not taking part in the war) a target of their attacks.

4.Finally, a Muslim has been strictly admonished against showing cowardice and spinelessness in the battlefields.

and importantly Jihad is only allowed on this level on more a self defence situation.(for completenes check ou the site)

and its main purpose would be to route out oppression and replace it with a system that works well, thus it can only be carried out from a complete overnedstate which has the capability of setting up such a non oppressive state.

So if this tape that is going around is as sadi by the writer it is against Islamic principle.

Born Free · 01-28-2002, 05:36 AM

You don't know the half of what goes on around here; seems a hell of a lot of muslims in Britain ought to admit they are stupid then if they can't interperet the word jihad properly by now. Glad to hear that it scares you too though, that's a start in the right direction. I appreciate you answering this.

jojo-sa · 01-28-2002, 05:46 AM

If you really want to know about Jihad read the site I gave.(there are also man other information on the topic available.)

It is in the form of questions and answers. Many question on there are about the fears the west have.

I must say I am also scared by all the terror and crazy bombings.

These people should be stopped. They really paint a bad picture for the millions of other followers out there and not to mention the broken homes and destroyed lives.

I say the fail to follow the first revelation of the Quran which was "Iqraq",

which means read, study , basically understand things.

Dont be ignorant and in the ignorance destroy other lives. This is a real bad ,sad thing.

01-28-2002, 02:08 AM	#1
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	Muslims explain this please This video doing the rounds in the UK amongst other things advocating a jihad to wipe out atheisim. Muslims wonder why jihad is seen as a holy war by westerners, can you blame us when all the evidence points out that this is exactly what it is???? "Screenings have been arranged both in private homes and, often after prayers, in mosques. Many showings have been timed so that young people, students and schoolchildren, can attend. Several are alleged to have taken place in Finsbury Park mosque in north London where the radical cleric Abu Hamza often leads prayers". Seems to me that you think we aren't educated enough to work out for ourselves what jihad and other terms really mean to a muslim. In public a lot of community leaders will deny Islam is a violent religion whilst allowing things like this video to circulate in their mosque????Do you really think we are this stupid to believe it? Yet some of you come here to make out we are dumb if we can't work out what Islam is all about, Islam according to whom??? If Islam were truly a non violent peace loving religion there would be no islamic terrorists. The thing that is really bothering me is that although this video is illegal here and despite the fact police have names of who is copying it and making it available there have been no arrests. There comes a time when political correctness goes too far I think. Freedom of religion act??? Where do you draw the line??? No wonder there is so much unrest here. When in Rome??? Nah don't apply to muslims does it??? I don't have a problem with muslims practising their own peculiar brand of religion so long as they do it quietly, in their own homes, in their own mosques but when I see things like this it makes me want to vomit. <a href="http://www.observer.co.uk/islam/story/0,1442,640288,00.html" target="_blank">video story hot off the press</a>

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01-28-2002, 02:27 AM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Also, a lot of Muslims turn evasive about militant Islamists. Where are the leading Muslim clerics who have taken out full-page ads in newspapers calling for a jihad against Osama bin Laden? Yes, jihad.

01-28-2002, 03:17 AM	#3
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	<a href="http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/showsubcategory.jsp?display=on&cat=18" target="_blank">http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/showsubcategory.jsp?display=on&cat=18</a> Read this site it will answer all your queastions on Jihad.

01-28-2002, 03:19 AM	#4
Waning Moon Conrad Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Victoria. Australia Posts: 1,417	There are two governments that make my blood boil with their despicable cowardice. The British and the Australian. Here we let an imam in Western Sydney spout on with his Islamic hatred for the west (and hence Australia) and the government won't throw him out, nor those who howl their assent in his mosque. I read about this video in England and it really seems as if the British police and government are too gutless to do anything. How far will it go? Will the British police suppress evidence if Pakistani youths start murdering English ones? Will that insipid wingnut headed Prince Charles continue cooing over them? I think that one day, there will be a holocaust in the west, preceded by a jackboot sale at Kmart. [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Waning Moon Conrad ]</p>

01-28-2002, 05:23 AM	#7
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	You taking the piss?? Did you read the article?? I don't have a problem with what religion they practice so long as it doesn't advocate violence toward anyone or do you think that's alright??

01-28-2002, 05:27 AM	#8
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	The site will expalin much more detail on Islamic Jihad. In my opinion many Muslims should read it too.It seems many are getting the whole term wrong. Your fears are real and understandable and in my opinion it scares me too. On the basic idea of Jihad for those who do not want to read the site. It means striving hard in the path of the Creator. It is more a fight against the inner self to ward off the bad things. It is also at certain times an actual battle (war) in the sense like the 2nd world war was a war. these are under certain conditions (for completeness you have to read the site mentioend earlier) 1. Jihad is a declared war against another people. Jihad does not cover any covert or hypocritical actions of a Muslim state against another. Thus, Jihad does not cover actions like secretly sponsoring terrorist activities against the adversaries, even if such adversaries are, in the opinion of the Islamic state, guilty of persecuting its citizens or any particular segment of its citizens. 2.A Muslim state cannot carryout Jihad, against an adversary state, in violation of any mutual or international agreements. This ethical condition, according to the Qur'an, would remain applicable even if the adversary state is clearly guilty of persecuting its citizens and even if the persecuted Muslims have called upon the Muslim state for help. 3.While in a state of war against another nation, Muslims cannot, under any circumstances, make the non-combatant peoples of that nation (including men, women and children not taking part in the war) a target of their attacks. 4.Finally, a Muslim has been strictly admonished against showing cowardice and spinelessness in the battlefields. and importantly Jihad is only allowed on this level on more a self defence situation.(for completenes check ou the site) and its main purpose would be to route out oppression and replace it with a system that works well, thus it can only be carried out from a complete overnedstate which has the capability of setting up such a non oppressive state. So if this tape that is going around is as sadi by the writer it is against Islamic principle.

01-28-2002, 05:36 AM	#9
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	You don't know the half of what goes on around here; seems a hell of a lot of muslims in Britain ought to admit they are stupid then if they can't interperet the word jihad properly by now. Glad to hear that it scares you too though, that's a start in the right direction. I appreciate you answering this.

01-28-2002, 05:46 AM	#10
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	If you really want to know about Jihad read the site I gave.(there are also man other information on the topic available.) It is in the form of questions and answers. Many question on there are about the fears the west have. I must say I am also scared by all the terror and crazy bombings. These people should be stopped. They really paint a bad picture for the millions of other followers out there and not to mention the broken homes and destroyed lives. I say the fail to follow the first revelation of the Quran which was "Iqraq", which means read, study , basically understand things. Dont be ignorant and in the ignorance destroy other lives. This is a real bad ,sad thing.

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