NearNihil Experience

I have noticed a pattern in the Gospel teachings that encourages non-retaliation and non-interference. This, I believe, is based on the ideas of divine retribution and if someone were to believe truly and wholly in a Judgement and afterlife and the soverign power of God to create the world under his influence as he sees fit, would be a full-time bystander in life.

Does this make anysense to anyone? The anti-worldly ideas in the Gospels seem to say, "Look, let it go. These people did these things because thats what they wanted to do (or if we don't have free-will, what God wanted us to do). Be resigned in your faith and own personal actions and that is all you can and should do. Justice is to be distributed by God after death and not a minute sooner, not by a flawed mortal. No action should be taken against another person, even to save your own life...because by someone killing you, and you not retaliating or killing him first out of fear, then you just received eternal happy-life, while your killer when the time comes gets eternal un-happy life."

This is of course based off of Biblical stuff and is a 2000 year old mentality. Xtianity has changed, but we're basically living in the same situations.

So, if my above statements have any merit, how come so much "justice" is being mortally distributed? Why so much self-defence and pre-emptive striking out of fear? Why so much evengalizing(Paul's fault?)?


It seems to me if one truly loved(yes I mean agape', not romantic love) God and trusted Him fully, then people would not be buying guns(mormons) to defend themselves, joining our preemptive killing task force(army), and in general allowing the things God has planned to happen to allow to happen.

Xtians...anyone?

PS. Freewill complicates this beyond measure...but freewill is a much younger concept than anything in the Gospels.

kkholiday

Where in the Gospels does it preach against defending yourself?

NearNihil Experience

"No action should be taken against another person, even to save your own life."Me
"Where in the Gospels does it preach against defending yourself?" kkholiday

Um, Jesus didn't lift a finger to defend himself. And he often preached pacificism. "Blessed are the meek" and so on. One who is meek and mild would take no life, even to preserve their own...ask a vegan or Janist.

At least quite a few people out there believe non-violence was preached by Jesus, Quakers and Shakers , some Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

Imagine someone giving you an opportunity to defend yourself from mortal attack...Now, What Would Jesus Do?

I just think that one of the major points of Xtainity is to live a Christ-like life, hence the importance of the question WWJD. And I see so many so-called\self called Xtains acting in a manner that shames Jesus's good teachings and are congruant with none or little of what he did or said. I just don't think you can call yourself a Xtian and not try to act Christ-like...I just seems like so-called Xtians need to try harder and think a little harder about their actions and consequences.

Has the Secular Xtianity of the "do-what-we-must" modern Western Mentality high-jacked the traditional asthetic and pious Christianity of so many years ago? Is strong faith gone, replaced by stubborn faith?

kkholiday

Yes, but as I understand Christianity, Jesus had to die to save everyone else and pay for everyone's sins and such. If he fought back, then the phophecy and covenant would not have been fulfilled. That is the whole reason he came to earth in the first place. I don't think his message was that all Christians should be martyrs or be crucified.

You can follow the teachings of Jesus without being a vegan or a Quaker. There are many different interpretations of Jesus' message with all different levels of rigidity; just because one interpretation is more or less strict doesn't mean it's more or less correct.

I do believe that meekness is a virtue (to steal some religious terminology). I think in many circumstances its very psychologically beneficial to be able to "let it go" when someone does something to hurt you. Its a trait that must be practiced and cultivated, but I don't think that every situation merits this response.

If my life or the life of someone I loved was in jeopardy, you bet your butt I'm going to do everything I can to stop it, and I don't think that goes against Christian teachings in the least.

Silent Acorns

How about good old Matt 5:38-39?
That's one of the most important passages in the New T.

Silent Acorns

I agree with you. If Christians took the teachings of Jesus seriously they would remove themselves from society and wait for the return. This was the reason monasteries where built like forts in remote locations, and why hermits were so venerated. The only other thing a good christian should do is evangelize. In other words, win over more souls and leave the judgement of sin to god.

The reason almost no one actually does this is because the vast majority of Christians can't bring themselves to actually do it. Most never could and few ever will. They are far more concerned with being more righteous than their fellow men than with actually doing what Jesus asked them to do.

The fact that so few christians even try to follow this path (and few ever have, it's not just a modern phenomenon) suggests to me that christians prefer to follow a "Pseudo-Jesus" that exists in their heads rather than the one actually described in the Gospels.

Calzaer

Probably Not

yguy

A pastor stood on the roof of his church in the midst of a raging flood. A boat came by to rescue him, but he declined, saying he wanted God to save him. As the water rose to the top of the steeple, a helicopter came by, but he again refused. Finally the water completely covered the church, and he lost his purchase. Just before he drowned, he cried to God, "Save me, save me!" God answered, "I sent you a boat, and I sent you a helicopter. What more do you want?"

Jinto

And the pastor replied: "Identification. I didn't recognize you."

NearNihil Experience

" There are many different interpretations of Jesus' message with all different levels of rigidity; just because one interpretation is more or less strict doesn't mean it's more or less correct."
kkholiday

The fact that there are different interpretations at all fascinates me. Also, the fact that there are different levels of rigidity is what scares me and is one of the tenants of the ever-so-popular "Argument from Confusion."

I see Jesus as quite the fruity peace-qeer hippy-thing guy, not some Charlemagne crusader type. Obviously intence in presence. It just seems that "the Jesus" was such a devout believer in his God that if what he said was true(if you can make much consistent with that book) and his teachings have remainded in tact to today...today it says a whole lot about refraining from harm and expending energy only towards service to others and lipservice, rememberance and communication with God.

I don't see much but lipservice to God and constant action towards activities as using others,lipservice, or even harmful action. Man's capacity to use or manipualte another man's talents or work know no bounds. We give people fucking medals for this. We entrust our freedoms to people who excell at this. I think the capacity to manipulate and take advantage of another is in my personal top list of "the worst things you can do"...pure evil, if I thought regularly in those terms. Being used has to be the worst thing someone can endure, whether they realize it is happening or not.

"I do believe that meekness is a virtue (to steal some religious terminology). I think in many circumstances its very psychologically beneficial to be able to "let it go" when someone does something to hurt you. Its a trait that must be practiced and cultivated, but I don't think that every situation merits this response."
kkholiday

Meekness no, let it go,yes. If you've been had, you've been had.
No dwelling, either let it go, or get the bastard...no agonizing over it. But yes, every situation is different.


"If my life or the life of someone I loved was in jeopardy, you bet your butt I'm going to do everything I can to stop it,
kkholiday

Right on...but remember, every situation is different.

"and I don't think that goes against Christian teachings in the least."
kkholiday

Depends on the Christian, which comes back to my original problem.


"The fact that so few christians even try to follow this path (and few ever have, it's not just a modern phenomenon) suggests to me that christians prefer to follow a "Pseudo-Jesus" that exists in their heads rather than the one actually described in the Gospels"

Bingo... Pseudo-jesus. I have always said that for as many people that there are, there are as many versions of God.
So, for people who base their morality on "da Jesus", we are gonna have as many morality systems of varying rigidity. I see the Argument from Confusion becoming more confusing...


PS: Helicopter joke rules.
Rock it.