Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 04-20-2003, 08:21 AM

Note: this topic may be depressing. (I know there is a similar recent topic but this is a bit different)

Every now and then I feel that ending my life would solve a lot of problems... the problems are fairly trivial but I sometimes just get used to having an easy hassle-free life.

When I believed in the Christian God and thought that my life was bad (no girlfriend, etc), I would believe that the afterlife would be paradise, but first I'd just have to put up with a few decades of whatever earthly life God gives me.

Without a belief that suicide is inherently wrong (e.g. like when I was a Christian) then it seems possible that suicide could be justifiable.

Some people say things like "your family would get upset"... that is supposed to make people feel guilty for potentially hurting the feelings of others - which you wouldn't know about in the future anyway, assuming there is no afterlife. I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and have been hospitalized (in the manic [happy] phase) and I've been told that a large number (1/3 or something) kill themselves after a while... so it wouldn't be as much of a shock to my family...

Another response could be "you can't do it - don't do it!" that is similar to the previous response.

Another thing might be "what if you regret it?" - well I wouldn't be capable of regretting it (assuming there is no afterlife, and my death was quick) and I've gotten used to accepting a lot of things, rather than regretting them. (I fantasize about redoing a lot of my life, but I accept how things happened - after all, once things have happened it is too late to change the past).

Another person might say "life is interesting, etc" - well that involves a lot of effort - I feel like I've seen enough.... I think I appreciate the different aspects of life, but I think that I might let others go on with it and I'll end the game... in movies I've seen a lot about things in life. I haven't done everything myself due to things like a lack of money or lack of charm/physical attractiveness... but through movies I get the idea. And I have dreams every night about interesting scenarios.

It would be a waste for me to die - e.g. I've got an Information Technology degree - though I've never used it - I've just worked at cafes, etc. I know a lot of other things though. But if I own my life then I thought I would be able to make choices like that - that perhaps aren't in the interests of everyone.

(I'm not voting for a while until I've formed more of an opinion)

Beer God · 04-20-2003, 08:41 AM

Unless you are terminally ill, and in great pain I would believe it to be morally justifiable to end ones life.

If not; suck it in, deal with it, spank your inner moppet, whatever you have to do, just get over it.

yguy · 04-20-2003, 08:56 AM

excreationist,

Imagine that I lead you to a door. On the other side, I inform you, is I know not what. All I know is that once that door closes behind you, it closes forever.

I dare you to tell me you'd go through that door of your own free will.

elanah · 04-20-2003, 09:03 AM

Ultimately, I think it's your choice. Making suicidal people even more miserable by attaching a stigma to them isn't exactly the way to make them want to stick around longer.

I understand that suicide is a way to escape pain, and I personally would rather see people overcome that pain and live happily than not at all- but I don't know enough about your life to make a decision for you.

As someone who has known a few suicidal people, I can say that we're kind of selfish. We don't want to be deprived of your company. We also want you to feel better.

So, it's your choice, but forgive me for hoping that you don't have to make it.

Sakpo · 04-20-2003, 11:47 AM

It may be, it may not be, depending on the individuals circumstances. If they have dependants (young children, for instance) who would not be well looked after after the suicide I'd say it'd be very morally wrong. There are other circumstances that would cause me to label it an inherently immoral act.

Otherwise, no, it's not absolutely wrong in any moral sense, though since it usually will cause hurt and pain for others it is somewhat wrong. Ultimately though, it's a free persons choice (free people should have the choice to do wrong things, to some extent). Usually (though not always), however, the decision to commit suicide is a short sighted, bad choice (just in terms of pure self interest). It's unfortunate that truly suicidal people can't see that.

Viti · 04-20-2003, 11:52 AM

Morally, I think it is wrong to cause pain to those you love and who love you. I have lost friends to suicide and it seems as though the pain they felt in life was simply transferred to those of us that they chose to leave.

yguy · 04-20-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea
Morally, I think it is wrong to cause pain to those you love and who love you. I have lost friends to suicide and it seems as though the pain they felt in life was simply transferred to those of us that they chose to leave.

In their mind's eye, perhaps they enjoyed imagining you weeping and gnashing your teeth in guilt over not having loved them enough. The ultimate ego trip for life's losers.

Sarpedon · 04-20-2003, 01:15 PM

Suicide is never wrong under any circumstances. As Thomas Paine made clear, the right of ownership of something includes the right to destroy it. If the right to take your own life is ever taken from you, the person who does so is claiming ownership over you. The religious ban on suicide is consistent with the fact that they think of their "sheep" as being something to be exploited, for money, power, and thrills. Naturally it would be bad if your sheep killed themselves, as it would if your slaves did. In short:

Any person, regardless of age or mental competence, has the right to end their life, because no one else can claim ownership over that person.

themistocles · 04-20-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Suicide is never wrong under any circumstances. As Thomas Paine made clear, the right of ownership of something includes the right to destroy it.

Disagreed. If a person commits suicide is a father and his household is dependent upon him both financially and emotionally, then the effects of suicide go beyond that person. Through suicide, a person is denying other people emotional, financial, and such, which, as a relative or bread winner, that person may likely have an understood duty towards.

Although, I would argue that suicide is wrong, not just from that basis, but just on the purely emotive yet factually true position that suicide is cowardly. Cowardice is not a trait that should be valued very much.

Jutsuka · 04-20-2003, 03:10 PM

themistocles: Suicide is NOT always an act of cowardice, in some cases it is an act of extreme bravery, in others an act of desperation, in some cases an act of honor.

Would you look a samurai, who's about to commit seppuku to follow his daimyo in death, in the eye and call him a coward? I think not.

Do not make the mistake of generalising. That said I do not believe that a depressed person is emotionally stable enough to make the decision to commit suicide in an obejctive manner. Depression is treatable, therefore I belive that anyone who is contemplating suicide due to depression should seek medical help.

If someone is mentally and emotionally stable and yet decide to take their own life I have no objections. It is their life to decide over.

View Poll Results: Must (non-terminally ill) depressed atheists always avoid suicide?
Always & I don't believe in the afterlife	11	24.44%
Not always & I don't believe in the afterlife	33	73.33%
Always & I'm a non-Christian that believes in the afterlife	0	0%
Not always & I'm a non-Christian that believes in the afterlife	0	0%
Always & I'm a Christian	1	2.22%
Not always & I'm a Christian	0	0%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

04-20-2003, 08:21 AM	#1
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Is suicide inherently wrong for depressed atheists? Note: this topic may be depressing. (I know there is a similar recent topic but this is a bit different) Every now and then I feel that ending my life would solve a lot of problems... the problems are fairly trivial but I sometimes just get used to having an easy hassle-free life. When I believed in the Christian God and thought that my life was bad (no girlfriend, etc), I would believe that the afterlife would be paradise, but first I'd just have to put up with a few decades of whatever earthly life God gives me. Without a belief that suicide is inherently wrong (e.g. like when I was a Christian) then it seems possible that suicide could be justifiable. Some people say things like "your family would get upset"... that is supposed to make people feel guilty for potentially hurting the feelings of others - which you wouldn't know about in the future anyway, assuming there is no afterlife. I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and have been hospitalized (in the manic [happy] phase) and I've been told that a large number (1/3 or something) kill themselves after a while... so it wouldn't be as much of a shock to my family... Another response could be "you can't do it - don't do it!" that is similar to the previous response. Another thing might be "what if you regret it?" - well I wouldn't be capable of regretting it (assuming there is no afterlife, and my death was quick) and I've gotten used to accepting a lot of things, rather than regretting them. (I fantasize about redoing a lot of my life, but I accept how things happened - after all, once things have happened it is too late to change the past). Another person might say "life is interesting, etc" - well that involves a lot of effort - I feel like I've seen enough.... I think I appreciate the different aspects of life, but I think that I might let others go on with it and I'll end the game... in movies I've seen a lot about things in life. I haven't done everything myself due to things like a lack of money or lack of charm/physical attractiveness... but through movies I get the idea. And I have dreams every night about interesting scenarios. It would be a waste for me to die - e.g. I've got an Information Technology degree - though I've never used it - I've just worked at cafes, etc. I know a lot of other things though. But if I own my life then I thought I would be able to make choices like that - that perhaps aren't in the interests of everyone. (I'm not voting for a while until I've formed more of an opinion)

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04-20-2003, 08:41 AM	#2
Beer God Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA Posts: 67	Unless you are terminally ill, and in great pain I would believe it to be morally justifiable to end ones life. If not; suck it in, deal with it, spank your inner moppet, whatever you have to do, just get over it.

04-20-2003, 08:56 AM	#3
yguy Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,199	excreationist, Imagine that I lead you to a door. On the other side, I inform you, is I know not what. All I know is that once that door closes behind you, it closes forever. I dare you to tell me you'd go through that door of your own free will.

04-20-2003, 09:03 AM	#4
elanah Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Waukesha, WI Posts: 309	Ultimately, I think it's your choice. Making suicidal people even more miserable by attaching a stigma to them isn't exactly the way to make them want to stick around longer. I understand that suicide is a way to escape pain, and I personally would rather see people overcome that pain and live happily than not at all- but I don't know enough about your life to make a decision for you. As someone who has known a few suicidal people, I can say that we're kind of selfish. We don't want to be deprived of your company. We also want you to feel better. So, it's your choice, but forgive me for hoping that you don't have to make it.

04-20-2003, 11:47 AM	#5
Sakpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest (illegally occupied indigenous l Posts: 7,716	It may be, it may not be, depending on the individuals circumstances. If they have dependants (young children, for instance) who would not be well looked after after the suicide I'd say it'd be very morally wrong. There are other circumstances that would cause me to label it an inherently immoral act. Otherwise, no, it's not absolutely wrong in any moral sense, though since it usually will cause hurt and pain for others it is somewhat wrong. Ultimately though, it's a free persons choice (free people should have the choice to do wrong things, to some extent). Usually (though not always), however, the decision to commit suicide is a short sighted, bad choice (just in terms of pure self interest). It's unfortunate that truly suicidal people can't see that.

04-20-2003, 11:52 AM	#6
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Morally, I think it is wrong to cause pain to those you love and who love you. I have lost friends to suicide and it seems as though the pain they felt in life was simply transferred to those of us that they chose to leave.

04-20-2003, 01:15 PM	#8
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Suicide is never wrong under any circumstances. As Thomas Paine made clear, the right of ownership of something includes the right to destroy it. If the right to take your own life is ever taken from you, the person who does so is claiming ownership over you. The religious ban on suicide is consistent with the fact that they think of their "sheep" as being something to be exploited, for money, power, and thrills. Naturally it would be bad if your sheep killed themselves, as it would if your slaves did. In short: Any person, regardless of age or mental competence, has the right to end their life, because no one else can claim ownership over that person.

04-20-2003, 03:10 PM	#10
Jutsuka Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 144	themistocles: Suicide is NOT always an act of cowardice, in some cases it is an act of extreme bravery, in others an act of desperation, in some cases an act of honor. Would you look a samurai, who's about to commit seppuku to follow his daimyo in death, in the eye and call him a coward? I think not. Do not make the mistake of generalising. That said I do not believe that a depressed person is emotionally stable enough to make the decision to commit suicide in an obejctive manner. Depression is treatable, therefore I belive that anyone who is contemplating suicide due to depression should seek medical help. If someone is mentally and emotionally stable and yet decide to take their own life I have no objections. It is their life to decide over.

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