Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Daggah · 01-03-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

And the "rags of the clergy" would have just miraculously stopped abusing, misleading and oppressing people contrary to Jesus' teaching because of Voltaire's "reason" and not Luther's research. Is that correct?

Just so we have Radorth's own words at hand here. He's implying that Luther's research did a great deal to stop oppression.

That's kind of hard considering how much Luther favored oppressing the Jews!

Radorth has failed to refute this point. When faced with the evidence of Luther's oppressive bigotry, he resorts to red herrings and straw men.

Jamie_L · 01-06-2003, 06:52 AM

This topic has wandered considerably since the post I'm interested in replying to, so ignore me at your leisuer. But...

A couple of thougts on schools:

As I've said before, public schools exist to provide a level of education to everyone in our society. This is a function that supports society, just like highway maintenance, water service, or social services. Just because someone doesn't make use of public schools doesn't mean they deserve to pay fewer taxes, just as I still pay taxes to support state-run social service even though I don't use them. There is a large-scale societal improvement that even I benefit from.

I'll grant that there should be more character education in public school settings. This can be done without religion being involved, which is advisable not because I'm an atheist, but because there are everything from Catholics to Muslims to Budhists in public schools.

Lastly, any private shool is bound to be a better environment than public schools. This is because it is a selected group of kids. Kids whose parents care enough to send their kids to private schools are likely to care enough to make them better behaved kids. The school itself can be selective about who it lets it. The problems associated with poverty and poor family structures tend not to make it into these schools. The kids behave better in these schools because the school is composed of a higher percentage of well-behaved kids, not necessarily because the school is better at making bad kids behave.

Jamie

Radorth · 01-06-2003, 10:12 AM

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Just so we have Radorth's own words at hand here.

Unusual, but thank you.

Quote:

He's implying that Luther's research did a great deal to stop oppression.

Yes the oppression of the Catholic church of "heretics." Not sure why you'd rob him of that distinction.

He also said that heretics should be "burned with the scriptures"

Does that quote appear anywhere in the Sec web library I wonder?

Rad

Radorth · 01-06-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

"Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, "

(Buffman) xxxxx Yup! That CONTINENTAL Congress certainly did all that. Maybe that's what they were doing while George Washington was begging them to send his rag-tag Continental Army some supplies....they were writing religious edicts instead of feeding, clothing and equipping the Army.

A typical response, questioning the motives of some faceless, nameless group. And nary a quote to back it up. In fact we find Jefferson recommending "divine services" for the troops later, and he did not mean a Catholic mass. (Although he ought to have for some I think). There was concern about their "profane" behavior.

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Just a speculation:

In lieu of quotes, facts, etc.

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Perhaps these men, who could be put to death if captured, were doing a great deal of praying themselves because the British were just on the outskirts of Philadelphia as Washington's Army retreated through the city. Not exactly a confidence builder in the security of their lives and fortunes. Many true believers turn to their supernatural gods to save them in such circumstances. The people who survive credit their prayers. Those who die don't get any say. It doesn't take all that much courage to sit in a building writing religious edicts for others to follow. Courage comes in standing face-to-face with a professional, well equipped and led army bent on killing you when you don't have the adequate means to defend yourself or the coward streak to run away.)

Well OK, "there are no atheists in foxholes." One must ask however whether the LACK of faith would have crippled the army, as it was on such a ragged edge. Also Washington saw Providence working throughout the war, and he gives specific examples, so it is absolutely clear he disagrees with you on whether Providence should have been solicited by one and all.

He says so in peacetime. What must have been his wish in wartime!!!?

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Here is what Mr. Jefferson was doing and saying during that period.

So. He attended services in public buildings, which speaks volumes to me, anyway.

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xxxxx What are you attempting to claim now? That the Library of Congress Exhibit is an accurate presentation of Religion and the Founding of the American Republic?

More accurate a summary than anything you'll find in the skeptics.org library.

Rad

Ab_Normal · 01-06-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L
I'll grant that there should be more character education in public school settings.

As the parent of a public school student, I feel I have some standing (to borrow a legal term) to weigh in here. I would greatly prefer if the parents would teach their children to be law-abiding citizens. I'm concerned that the schools are being asked to take on so much of the parental role, because some parents are unwilling (or unable) to do it themselves. My husband volunteered in our daughter's classroom for first through third grade (the fourth grade teacher doesn't seem to want the help

), and he often complained about kids who didn't know how to act in the classroom, and parents who, when he talked to them about it, didn't care, or actively defended their little thugs.

Jamie, otherwise I entirely agree with you. :notworthy

Toto · 01-06-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth

Yes the oppression of the Catholic church of "heretics." Not sure why you'd rob him of that distinction.

He also said that heretics should be "burned with the scriptures"

Does that quote appear anywhere in the Sec web library I wonder?

Rad

(Who said heretics should be burned with the scriptures? I think you are making that up.)

Stop wondering. If you want to find quotes from Luther in the secweb library, go the the home page and search.

http://www.infidels.org/~godlessheathen/Quotes.html

Quote:

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church [...]a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."-- Martin Luther cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., "Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossm�thigen von Hessen mit Bucer", vol. I.

Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." -- Martin Luther

Robert Ingersoll on Luther

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Is Protestantism willing to rest its claims upon the "great man" argument? Give me the idea, the religions, not that have been advanced and believed by the so-called great of the past, but that will be defended and believed by the great souls of the future.

. . . . John Calvin has been called a logician, and reasoned well from his premises, but the burning of Servetus did not make murder a virtue. Luther weakened somewhat the Power of the Catholic Church, and to that extent was a reformer, and yet Lord Brougham affirmed that his "Table Talk" was so obscene that no respectable English publisher would soil paper with a translation. He was a kind of religious Rabelais; and yet a man can defend Luther in his attack upon the church without justifying his obscenity. If every man in the Catholic Church was a good man that would not convince me that Ignatius Loyola ever met and conversed with the Virgin Mary. The fact is, very few men are right in everything.

Ingersoll again

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Even the reformers, so-called, of those days, had no idea of intellectual liberty -- no idea even of toleration. Luther, Knox, Calvin, believed in religious liberty only when they were in the minority. The moment they were clothed with power they began to exterminate with fire and sword.

Daggah · 01-06-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Yes the oppression of the Catholic church of "heretics." Not sure why you'd rob him of that distinction.

Why? Hmm...oh, I don't know. I just happen to be angry when you try to paint someone who inspired Hitler as an open-minded, tolerant person who was ahead of his time.

"I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all."

(Yup, some tolerance there!)

So tell me, Raddy, just what research of Luther's came to the conclusion that, while the Jews and witches were bad, and that Copernicus was totally wrong (because the Bible said so), but that atheists and other heretics are okay folks?

The history of Christianity has shown time and time again that, if there's anyone Christians hate the most, it's the heretic.

I say again: Luther was a bigot.

Buffman · 01-06-2003, 12:15 PM

Rad

"Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, "

And why does Rad post this quoted statement without a souce reference? If he likes to throw undocumented statements out there, then I have no problem using information gained from reading about the history of those days in order to be able to offer additional possibilities for the actions that were taken.

Buffman, if I wanted to win some "war" you say I'm a part of, I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time with this choir. To me, the only value of these exchanges it what we can all learn about those complex and insightful people who framed our Constitution.

I agree! That has been my position from the beginning. Providing original reference documents/references to assist in better understanding the existing conditions/motivations behind the thoughts and actions of the people of those times.

I have always agreed with the total verbal and written religiosity of these people. What other choice were they taught back then? However, I continue to take exception to the belief that it was due solely to Christian dogma conditioning that resulted in the America of today. I continue to view it more as the need for the masses and leadership to be ethical and moral in order to rule themselves ("We the people...") than Jesus and the angels ruling everyone. A nature's God, a Creator, a Divine Providence were the only explanations available to humankind until scientific methodology began to unvover newer, more reliable, and verifiable explanations for what had once been unknown.

The "war," in which you are a footsoldier, is between those who wish to make the America of today into a denominational, sectarian, Christian Nation and those who wish it to be an ethical, moral and pluralistic Secular Nation of all beliefs and non-beliefs.---Did Christian faith belief conditioning contribute to Americas growth and development? Of course it did. No one has claimed otherwise. But why are you attempting to make it seem as though that without that Christian conditioning America would never have achieved what it did; and therefore, we must all abide by one group of true believer's interpretations of Holy Bible edicts rather than many of the fine allegorical moral philosophies contained within its pages?

Well OK, "there are no atheists in foxholes."

And whose quote is this? What verifiable evidence do you offer that it is a universally valid statement? Obviously it is not. So why use it? To what end/purpose?

One must ask however whether the LACK of faith would have crippled the army, as it was on such a ragged edge.

This is a valid point. It is also why most military forces, and their commanders, like to have religious representatives (Chaplains)servicing the the spiritual and morale needs of their forces...especially when those forces may face imminent defeat or death. A belief in an afterlife can be a very useful tool/psychological device to use in war/dangerous situations. Even the Soviet forces used political Commisars with their military units in a similar fashion...to justify the individual's death for the greater good of the proletariat.

Also Washington saw Providence working throughout the war, and he gives specific examples, so it is absolutely clear he disagrees with you on whether Providence should have been solicited by one and all.

Are the speeches by Osama bin Laden any different? Is Osama's Allah(PBUH) greater and more powerful than Washington's Providence? It is all the same supernatural BS. Go out an die for (fill-in the blank). Well, I voluntarily swore to protect and uphold the U.S.Constitution even at the cost of my own life. I did not swear to protect and uphold the Holy Bible or supernatural beliefs of any sort.

Washington does not disagree with me, or I with him. He used what he knew and believed would work to win the war and provide an enduring peace. Obviously he was wrong about the enduring peace based on supernatural beliefs.

Daggah · 01-06-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Well OK, "there are no atheists in foxholes."

Do you believe this to be true, Radorth? Do you really think this?

Radorth · 01-06-2003, 07:29 PM

Quote:

And why does Rad post this quoted statement without a souce reference?

It's already been given, by Toto I believe.

Virtually all original sources I use (and most you use) can, unbeknownst to us until recently, be found right here, or in the links.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/links/index.htm

Apparently Barton isn't worried about anybody reading his Jefferson quotes in context, or Farrand's records as we were led to believe.

Quote:

A nature's God, a Creator, a Divine Providence were the only explanations available to humankind until scientific methodology began to unvover newer, more reliable, and verifiable explanations for what had once been unknown.

The world isn't one tiny bit more moral because of science. Now we just have better ways to destroy our enemies, and have to pray daily Muslim extremists don't get their hands on them. I marvel that more atheists don't like Bush, since he seems to depend more on brute force than God. It' one of those fascinating ironies which keeps me coming to the Secweb for entertainment.

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01-06-2003, 06:52 AM	#122
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	This topic has wandered considerably since the post I'm interested in replying to, so ignore me at your leisuer. But... A couple of thougts on schools: As I've said before, public schools exist to provide a level of education to everyone in our society. This is a function that supports society, just like highway maintenance, water service, or social services. Just because someone doesn't make use of public schools doesn't mean they deserve to pay fewer taxes, just as I still pay taxes to support state-run social service even though I don't use them. There is a large-scale societal improvement that even I benefit from. I'll grant that there should be more character education in public school settings. This can be done without religion being involved, which is advisable not because I'm an atheist, but because there are everything from Catholics to Muslims to Budhists in public schools. Lastly, any private shool is bound to be a better environment than public schools. This is because it is a selected group of kids. Kids whose parents care enough to send their kids to private schools are likely to care enough to make them better behaved kids. The school itself can be selective about who it lets it. The problems associated with poverty and poor family structures tend not to make it into these schools. The kids behave better in these schools because the school is composed of a higher percentage of well-behaved kids, not necessarily because the school is better at making bad kids behave. Jamie

01-06-2003, 12:15 PM	#128
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Rad "Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, " And why does Rad post this quoted statement without a souce reference? If he likes to throw undocumented statements out there, then I have no problem using information gained from reading about the history of those days in order to be able to offer additional possibilities for the actions that were taken. Buffman, if I wanted to win some "war" you say I'm a part of, I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time with this choir. To me, the only value of these exchanges it what we can all learn about those complex and insightful people who framed our Constitution. I agree! That has been my position from the beginning. Providing original reference documents/references to assist in better understanding the existing conditions/motivations behind the thoughts and actions of the people of those times. I have always agreed with the total verbal and written religiosity of these people. What other choice were they taught back then? However, I continue to take exception to the belief that it was due solely to Christian dogma conditioning that resulted in the America of today. I continue to view it more as the need for the masses and leadership to be ethical and moral in order to rule themselves ("We the people...") than Jesus and the angels ruling everyone. A nature's God, a Creator, a Divine Providence were the only explanations available to humankind until scientific methodology began to unvover newer, more reliable, and verifiable explanations for what had once been unknown. The "war," in which you are a footsoldier, is between those who wish to make the America of today into a denominational, sectarian, Christian Nation and those who wish it to be an ethical, moral and pluralistic Secular Nation of all beliefs and non-beliefs.---Did Christian faith belief conditioning contribute to Americas growth and development? Of course it did. No one has claimed otherwise. But why are you attempting to make it seem as though that without that Christian conditioning America would never have achieved what it did; and therefore, we must all abide by one group of true believer's interpretations of Holy Bible edicts rather than many of the fine allegorical moral philosophies contained within its pages? Well OK, "there are no atheists in foxholes." And whose quote is this? What verifiable evidence do you offer that it is a universally valid statement? Obviously it is not. So why use it? To what end/purpose? One must ask however whether the LACK of faith would have crippled the army, as it was on such a ragged edge. This is a valid point. It is also why most military forces, and their commanders, like to have religious representatives (Chaplains)servicing the the spiritual and morale needs of their forces...especially when those forces may face imminent defeat or death. A belief in an afterlife can be a very useful tool/psychological device to use in war/dangerous situations. Even the Soviet forces used political Commisars with their military units in a similar fashion...to justify the individual's death for the greater good of the proletariat. Also Washington saw Providence working throughout the war, and he gives specific examples, so it is absolutely clear he disagrees with you on whether Providence should have been solicited by one and all. Are the speeches by Osama bin Laden any different? Is Osama's Allah(PBUH) greater and more powerful than Washington's Providence? It is all the same supernatural BS. Go out an die for (fill-in the blank). Well, I voluntarily swore to protect and uphold the U.S.Constitution even at the cost of my own life. I did not swear to protect and uphold the Holy Bible or supernatural beliefs of any sort. Washington does not disagree with me, or I with him. He used what he knew and believed would work to win the war and provide an enduring peace. Obviously he was wrong about the enduring peace based on supernatural beliefs.

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