Toto

This is an address delivered by Bobbie Kirkhart, president of the Atheist Alliance, to the International League of Non-Religious and Atheists's conference in the fall of 2002.

Separation of Church and State in America - Jefferson to Bush

I think it may clear up some of Rad's confusion about those spiritual Deists (or not). But I invite your comments.

Splat

Excellent. Thanks for the link Toto.

Toto

Bumping this topic as a test.

This is going to take some getting used to.

Radorth

Oops,

Rad

Radorth

OK, I read through it, and I don't think it's me that's confused, except about one thing. Are the nine demands still high on the atehist agenda? If so, then it isn't me with the gripes here.

He presents no supported facts, quotes, URL's, to back up any of his assertions. I thought that was importat to you guys. Guess not.

Rad

Toto

Rad - this is a transcript of a speech, not a posting here. It is presented for the ideas, not as proof.

I think that most freethinkers would agree with those 9 demands, but they are probably not as high on the atheist agenda as opposition to vouchers or the faith-based funding boondoggle.

Radorth

Yeah, that's OK. The Christians who send their kids somewhere to keep them from getting beat up and cursed at all day, having evolutionary THEORY only a Phd could reconcile rammed down their throats, and sitting under leaky roofs, will continue to pay double taxes.

Hey, not to worry. Who needs vouchers except those who can't afford private school?

I hear black people in the inner city want vouchers pretty bad. Why would that be?

Rad

theyeti

LOL!!

Were exactly do Christians get beat up and cursed at all day for the mere fact that they're Christians? I can understand if they're like you, but it's hard to believe that the 80% or more of school kids who are from Christian families are getting picked on. It makes you wonder who's left to do the picking. I have heard of school kids getting picked on for being atheist, but never Christian.

Do you mean reconcile with Christianity? Are you not aware that the Catholic church and most mainline Protestant denominations reconcile their faith with evolution?

The roof of my school never leaked.

They're not paying double taxes. They're paying single taxes. Everyone pays them, even people who don't have children. If ChristiansÔ choose to dismiss the education that the government has offered them and go to private schools that indocrinate them into their cult, then they can jolly well pay the extra. No one's making them do it, and so therefore it cannot be construed as taxation. I shouldn't have to pay for their choice; that would be double taxing me.

Hey, I got a deal for you. I don't really like the government's roads, so I'm going to build my own. And I'm going to start demanding that the government subsidize me for it. You support my roads, and I'll support your vouchers.

theyeti

Perchance

I have questions about the seventh and eighth demands, because I don't really understand them:

I can think of laws that "indirectly" reinforce the Sabbath, such as certain stories closing on Sunday, but are there any laws that directly say, "You must go to church and pray on Sunday?" I'm unaware of them.

And number eight seems as though it would be a mess, unless one took the position that everything mentioned in the Bible is "Christian" morality. (And even then, I don't know a lot of people who would say that some laws, such as the most liberal interpretation of the Sixth Commandment, should be abolished). Who would decide what is and is not Christian morality, and how long would it take to sort this out?

I like it in general, but there are some sticking points.

-Perchance.

Radorth

I didn't say "for the mere fact they are Christians." They get beat up if they show any weakness. Hmmmm. Reminds me of evolutionary teaching, for some reason.

If the school system were not falling apart morally, you might have a point. Children are entitled go to a school where kids have to adhere to some kind of moral code. I suggest atheists who defend our school system either have no kids, or send them to more conservative schools where they are still adhered to, and where the punishment fits the crime. The fact is, most of behavioral norms are born of a Judeo-Christian culture, and we have gone to far in questioning them. The secular humanist worldview has engendered too many excuses for bad behavior IMO, and the kids are taking full advantage. I think the fact that two popular radio shows here total five hours per day and are hosted by conservative blacks is simply the proof of what I am saying.

We've met the enemy and it isn't Christianity.

BTW, how about we teach nothing at all about evolution or creation, since we can't prove how we originated?

Rad