Soul Invictus

Amidst my readings and conversing with others, and a post a while back I made under a similar vein, I still am unclear as to what constitutes a Jew. Allow me to post my confusion.

I had the opportunity to attend a discussion on the Palestinian conflict in the Middle East. There were two speakers...a Palestinian born American male citizen, and a White Americian female citizen. He is a practicing Muslim and he voiced his opinions. She converted to being a Jew, visited Israel, and is also an Israeli citizen.

I understand that the issue of their conflict is based on both religious and cultural differences. However, the basic question I posed to her is what constituted her being a Jew. I'll tell you that although my question provoked interesting dialogue, there was no conclusive answer. The point I was trying to make is that my elementary assumption was that a Jew was an adherent to Judaism, which in turn naturally has customs characteristic of a particular culture, but basely to be a Jew is primarily associated with a religion. In my example to her, I said that the Chinese are named as such because their culture is dictated by an identifiable culture in an area that we come to recognize as China, thus this would be a term to endear nationality; however you wouldn't say that a Christian is from a particular area of the world. You may clearly recognize where what area of the world began or started the Christian "way" of life, but it is a term endearing to a religion. So when the female speaker said she was a Jew, it was my understanding that being a Jew clearly associates with a religion.According to her, she doesn't have any ethnic history (ancestors) associated with the Palestinian area, so wouldn't it be natural to follow that to be a Jew is to be an adherent of a faith, rather than to define a specific ethnic people? Is a Jew an ethnic or religious term is my basic question.

I wanted to make distinctions so I could compare apples to apples. I would think that the problem could be classified as either Jews against Muslims (religious)or Israeli citizens against Palestinians (ethnic) which I know isn't quite right however the Jew term is problematic for me. I know there may be some fusion between the two, however that doesn't explain my initial question. If there was another group of people that benefited from a all-encompassing term to explain both religious and ethnic connotations, maybe I could reason out the term.

Any help is appreciated, and if my post was confusing, I'll do my best to clarify...

Invictus

Shadowy Man

I was born Jewish, and some will claim I will always be so, independent of my religious beliefs. Part of what brought me to this board was a search within myself of what it meant to be a Jew.

I have come to this somewhat unsatisfactory understanding. A Jew is one or more of the following:

1 - an adherent of the Jewish religion (i.e. believe in the Jewish god, follow all the religious rituals, etc.)

2 - a follower of traditionally Jewish customs (i.e. doesn't have to believe in the Jewish god, go to temple etc, but takes part of standard Jewish rituals, holidays, Bar/Bat Mitzvah ceremonies, etc.) - often called a "cultural" or "secular" Jew.

3 - child of a Jewish mother (regardless of beliefs or activities)

When I first started on this journey, I thought that if I stopped being 1 or 2, I could stop being a Jew. I was told by a couple of family members that I would still be a Jew because of 3. For example, if I lived in Nazi Germany, I could still be persecuted for being a Jew no matter what I believed. Also, if a Palestinian thought I was a Jew, he/she might treat me just as he/she might treat the Israeli Jews.

But if 3 is necessary, then how can conversion ever work? My basic statement was "if a convert can be a Jew, I can not be a Jew". People talk about being "ex-Christian" - can someone be "ex-Jewish"?

I don't think I've really clarified the situation, or come to terms with what I really am in this regard, but many Jews will say that it is possible to be an atheist Jew.

Don't know if this helped at all...

Soul Invictus

As with the debates, your post does provoke interesting dialogue, but I'm not sure it did answer the question as I had hoped. You did give me more information.

So according to your information, the culture is the defining factor primarily, (since one could be a Jew, but not be a follower of the Jewish faith? (Judaism)

Amos

Pretty much. Once a Jew always a Jew is much like once a Catholic always a Catholic. It is more culture than anything else but that works only for one or two generations unless the culture is maintianed. And of course, the more 'Jewish' you are raised the deeper Judaism will be entrenched through the fellowship with believers and comminion with the saints. The latter is very important because that is how mental images are 'imprinted.'

fando

Shadowy Man,

You're being branded as Jewish by those who wish to maintain a semblance of cohesive Jewish identity whether you like it or not. If I were in your shoes, I'd just retire that identity because it really needs to be put to rest. You are you, quit being molded by the expectations of others.

I was going to write a lot more on this, but I'll just say that I think applying loaded labels trivializes a person. Don't settle for the stereotype, instead be judged by your individual qualities and traits.

I hate that policy. It seems practical on the surface, but the side effect is that it gives some people an excuse to brand those who can't be branded.

Egoinos

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the idea that someone remains a Jew even if they no longer adhere to the religion was an anti-semitic idea.

More specifically, the policy the Nazis had was based on a racial rather than religious difference they claimed existed between Jews and gentiles.

Thats one of the reasons I've never been terribly keen on the idea that you could have "Jewish blood", be "part Jewish", or remain Jewish if you converted to any other religion or to none. That said, I know Jewish people who don't believe that - I had a friend at school who anxiously scanned her entrance form for university, looking for the box marked "Jewish" under "race".

Oxymoron

It's an understandable human trait to desire to easily label - classify, if you will - an individual. Real life is more complex than that, though. Seeking easy and palatable answers is not a good way forward.

My ethnicity is Jewish, since I was born to Jewish parents. The Jewish culture considers me Jewish because my mother is Jewish, but that's a different argument. Meanwhile, in terms of belielf system I am an atheist; I utterly reject Judaism and its bastard offspring. Culturally, it's not something that troubles me: I still like matzo ball soup

If the question is "what is a Jew?", and there is no clear-cut answer, it is not the case that the problem lies on the "answer" side. Perhaps the question is flawed?

It is almost universal that people look to their heritage to establish a peer group; socially, we want to belong to something. Therefore to disregard one's family tree seems just as bizarre as to be utterly dominated by it. I take your point, fando, but it is made a bit too strongly.

Janaya

Hmm.

Something I've always wondered about is why anti-semitism is called that and not anti-Jewism. I thought that being a Jew had more to do with culture and religion than bloodlines. Isn't semitism ethic in origin? Are all Jews semites? Are all semites Jews?

Soul Invictus

Maybe I can clarify the distinction I'm trying to make...

Jap·a·nese ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jp-nz, -ns)
adj.
Of or relating to Japan or its people, language, or culture.

n. pl. Japanese

A native or inhabitant of Japan.
A person of Japanese ancestry.
The language of the Japanese, possibly related to the Altaic family, written in kana and Chinese characters.


E·gyp·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-jpshn)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Egypt.
The now extinct Afro-Asiatic language of the ancient Egyptians.

adj.
Of or relating to Egypt or its people or culture.
Of or relating to the language of the ancient Egyptians.

These two examples seem to definitively associate the people and their culture to a specific land area (presumably where their said culture began/flourished)

Now...

cul·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klchr)
n.

The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization

I am not able to balance this with the Jewish culture. For instance, with my example of the Japanese, it may be endemic for citizens to be followers of a faith of Shinto and Buddhist ideas, however it isn't comingled when explaining what is Japanese. For instance, Japanese culture may embrace these religions, however you wouldn't use the religion/spirituality to define the people....( I am unable to articulate my point as well as I'd like in this last sentence)

As with Egypt, although their culture may predominantly embrace Islam, when speaking on Egyptian matters, you speak in terms of the people, which is the Egyptians themselves.

So back to my initial dilemma, when the female speaker said she was Jewish, I assumed that to be Jewish had to be more of a religious connotation, since someone could adopt to follow a practice and be labelled as such. For instance, I may adopt Yoruba customs, but it doesn't make me Nigerian, you get my point?

The only problem I'm having is that I'm not finding one other parallel, comparative example of a people that are afforded the ability to use the same term to define both the ethnicity and religious/spiritual affiliation. Are there any other examples that I'm not privy to?

Invictus

NightWatchman

the bible says

"a jew is one inwardly" in other words one who meditates.
from egyptian jeu