Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 03-26-2002, 01:51 AM

For my part, I've found the story of Jesus Christ cursing the fig tree to be absolutely appalling -- it seems to me like an extremely childish temper tantrum. He ought to have been aware that the tree was not in season for figs, and he might even have conjured up some figs for himself, if he really needed food.

Also, Romans 13:1 seems to me like shameless rear-end-kissing; was a government that worshipped pagan gods really set up by the Christian God?

And the Book of Revelation -- what kind of drugs was its author taking?

sidewinder · 03-26-2002, 03:37 AM

woodchuck: It's good to see a Christian here with a sense of humor. I personally don't have a problem with what I'll call your "philosophical reflections" on the nature of human life in the universe because I can relate to them, and I think most people can relate to them.

As human beings, we're all in the same boat. We all have to decide the meaning and purpose of our lives. I think strong disagreements between people begin when you start specifically claiming that the Christian God is the God of the universe. Most of us here have read and studied the Bible and it's because of that most of us are atheists or agnostics of some sort.

We reflect philosophically on our lives and come to different conclusions about meaning and purpose than Christians do.

Kosh · 03-26-2002, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
<strong>
And the Book of Revelation -- what kind of drugs was its author taking?</strong>

Mushrooms.

zamboniavenger · 03-26-2002, 08:42 AM

Quote:

I'm saying that there must be something behind morality- there must be the greater cause of the morality- and in that there must somewhere be an absolute morality... more on that later!

Well, there's a whole forum here for that idea, so I won't touch it.

Quote:

and my point was that, who ever or whatever created or caused us must have meaning itself- the whole congruous thing.

I'm not sure I see the jump, but maybe I'm just slow. But much more importantly, my name is not weird(well ok, maybe a little bit

)

edited because I am slow.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: zamboniavenger ]</p>

ManM · 03-26-2002, 10:29 AM

lpetrich,
If the cursing of the fig tree was a childish temper tantrum, then surely we all find something silly with it. Although, I don't think many Christians will grant that it was a temper tantrum. I believe it was a warning combined with a very graphic example. You know, a withering fig tree is one of those things you tend to remember. I doubt there was any real malice in the act.

Our interpretation of the event (or any other biblical passage) comes from our beliefs. If you believe that Jesus was a shady character, you will interpret his actions as shady. If you believe Jesus was good, you will interpret his actions in a good light.

Pennywise the clown · 03-26-2002, 11:06 AM

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

I agree with your view that "God" (whatver that is) may well be beyond the ken of science and I also think that lack of evidence is just that: lack of evidence--nothing more.

What I don't like is when naturalists reach a foregone conclusion:

Quote:

My rant from another thread:

This narrow-minded (my opinion) view tends to spawn an impressive array of non-sequiturs, some of which go something like this: "since science cannot study a divine purpose, there is none," "since science can�t study ethics, they are purely subjective," "since science has disproven religious theories, they're all wrong", etc. Granted, on a certain level I *suspect* that the religious experience may be beyond the ken of science; but, I do encourge the lens of science to be applied to the religious experience.

When scientists define the game of "science" in such a way that only naturalistic theories are open to consideration, and present the *best* naturalistic theory as fact without putting other notions to the test; then, the proposition that *naturalistic theories* are correct becomes a foregone conclusion.

In short: in this clown's opinion, limiting MN to the confines you describe does science a disservice.

[My main point here is this: God isn't empirical- empirical Gods are called Idols. They're man made and they do what you tell them.]

I'm sure someone will make the argument that this standard can be applied to the Christian God.

[I'm going to stick with the subject of us being personal beings, and that force (what I believe is God) behind existence being personal- and that force being the creator of all attributes that are personal. Because in my experience, this is where God meets us- in an unempirical way, but that does not say he isn't real anymore than your thoughts aren't real. He created us personal because he wants to be personal with us... and I hope that someone out there begins to realize this as they look for him. I also hope that this helps you with where to look.]

I'm still looking Woodchuck! Believe me, left very few stones unturned! Beep! Beep! I'll have to settle for the divine experience in a spiritual way and leave it at that. Christianity has too much baggage for me and has left too many scars. If I get damned for not following some rule about being saved then so be it! I don't think a logical and kind God would do this.

Nice to meet a nice Christian though--especially one with a sense of humor!

BTW: do you like pie?

NOGO · 03-26-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Ken1burton
How about starting with "Let there be light.", God is saying for this to happen, And Jesus poured out the Light.

So if I say "let there be a clown" and someone show up the next morning and says "I am a clown"
That makes me a prophet. Could it be that the man heard me say "let there be a clown" and decided to play along? In that case no prophecy exists and none is fulfiled.

Now "let there be light" in genesis is clearly about creation of the physical world.
Jesus and people who wrote the Gospels read Genesis and played along.
No prophecy was made and none was fulfilled.

This kind of prophecy will only convince the already convinced.

NOGO · 03-26-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Woodchuck
So, we are born with questions that this "force" has implanted in us because it has an answer. Example: I have thirst, the force creates water, I'm hungry, the force creates food, I have lungs, the force has oxygen, I have a sex drive, the force has created sex. It is all congruous.

This is true but it is also of no use to your point of view. You see purpose where perhaps no purpose exist.
I have thirst - the force creates water. Perhaps it happened the other way around. There is water and therefors creatures that evolved on earth are made of water, need water and get thirsty for water.

Quote:

Woodchuck
So if the force behind the universe is just a force- it's nature, it's impersonal, it's just that thing that makes you have to take a dump and causes you chemically to fall in love out of stimulus response and whatever else... we're a joke. These conversations are pointless- morality is a comedy act, life itself is a pointless gag. Loving someone is no different then burping and blowing it in there face, rationality itself is irrational, and the search for meaning is a glitch in our distorted heads.

Yes, this is the way the bibles puts it.
Ecc 9:3-9
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works. Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head. Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.

Quote:

Woodchuck
Now, I personally find it hard to believe that this force- if it is merely some impersonal force- could create such personal beings. How could this force create these things if it itself has none of these characteristics?

The logic is the problem. You assume that the characteristic of being personal is not part of the physical world. Therefore you argue that surely a purly physical explanation for people is illogical because this impersonal force is inferior to what it has created.

Quote:

Woodchuck
a mind, and the perception of the mind is unphysical,

Wrong. The mind is physical. Totally physical.
You open the skul and put a spoon in and shake it around. You will damage the brain and also the mind.
You will forget things. If you were in love with someone you may not recognize her anymore. Therefore the spoon has removed the love that you felt.

I know a case where a person was in a car accident which caused him to lose all memories of his family and his career. He did not recognize his wife and children. People stopped him in the street to talk about how great a footbal player he was but he did not remember any of it.

The perception of the mind (brain) is totally physical. Yes you know neurons firing, chemical reactions etc.

Quote:

woodchuck
My main point here is this: God isn't empirical- empirical Gods are called Idols. They're man made and they do what you tell them.

Myth is not emperical either. You point is?

Quote:

Ipetrich
For my part, I've found the story of Jesus Christ cursing the fig tree to be absolutely appalling

The main point about Jesus cursing of the tree is as follows.
Jesus could have used his powers to create a fig which he wanted, and satisfy his hunger. (positive)
Instead he chose to use his powers to destroy the tree which satisfied his need to express his frustration. (negative)

NOGO · 03-26-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote:

ken1burton
There was a curse for the one who ended the Daily Sacrifice. Timbers was to be pulled down from His House, they were to be set up, and He was to be hung thereon. That curse is in Ezra, and it look to Calvary.

Here are the verses. Correct me if I got the wrong ones.
Ezra 6 9:12
"Whatever is needed, both young bulls, rams, and lambs for a burnt offering to the God of heaven, and wheat, salt, wine and anointing oil, as the priests in Jerusalem request, it is to be given to them daily without fail, that they may offer acceptable sacrifices to the God of heaven and pray for the life of the king and his sons. "And I issued a decree that any man who violates this edict, a timber shall be drawn from his house and he shall be impaled on it and his house shall be made a refuse heap on account of this. "May the God who has caused His name to dwell there overthrow any king or people who attempts to change it, so as to destroy this house of God in Jerusalem. I, Darius, have issued this decree, let it be carried out with all diligence!"

So Darius gave a decree to rebuilt the temple in Jerusalem. He also decree the kind of help required and that if any man should violate this decree that he should be put to death in the following way.

A timber shall be drawn from his house and he shall be impaled on it and his house shall be made a refuse heap on account of this.

Was Jesus crucified on a timber from his house?
Was his house made a refuse heap?
Did Jesus violate Darius' edict?

What if anything does this have to do with Jesus?
This is not even a prophecy!

When I asked for one prophecy I was asking for your best one. I do hope that this is not your best one.

woodchuck · 03-26-2002, 05:49 PM

Hi Pennywise:
It's nice to see a clown with a sense of humor, and to answer your question,

Quote:

How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?

Hmmm, let me check my bible (that being the christian thing to do) of crap I have no answer- God works in mysterious ways Penny-

Hey, who says that just because I am a christian I can't poke fun at 'em?

and as for this quote from lpetrich

Quote:

For my part, I've found the story of Jesus Christ cursing the fig tree to be absolutely appalling -- it seems to me like an extremely childish temper tantrum. He ought to have been aware that the tree was not in season for figs, and he might even have conjured up some figs for himself, if he really needed food.

You know, this is one of the two major temper tantrums thrown by Jesus- the other got lost in translation, but I know it happened. I was when Jesus realized it was Judas who would betray him- all the disciples had there backs turned and he snuck and gave Judas a wedgy and kicked him in the iscariots- what a baby.

And sidewinder- thankyou for your response too! I'm surprised no body hates me yet... is it because I haven't started talkin about the big JC yet? I hope I don't loose all my friends when that one comes up. Maybe I'll miraculously convert the entire atheist web and it will change to "infidels for the Lord.com"

woo- calm down guys I was just kidding...

also... thanks for making me feel like an idiot NOGO, I just burned my bible today and drove by my church and flipped it off with both hands. You're quite the antipreacher. (seriously thanks, you did challenge me and make me think, I'll keep that going later...)

Man I love this place. I go visit the Christian Forum "faithforum.com" and it's just not as much fun. I think some of you guys need to sneak in over there and start makin the kids squirm a little- do some missionary work- they need it. Challenge them and make them think. Maybe you'll get some converts. (or deconverts? what ever you call'em) oop- gotta go! if you go to faithforum my name's enicolle over there-

peace out gangstas.
-EEf (the woodchuck)

Hello sidewinder, NOGO, pennywise <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

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03-26-2002, 01:51 AM	#21
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	For my part, I've found the story of Jesus Christ cursing the fig tree to be absolutely appalling -- it seems to me like an extremely childish temper tantrum. He ought to have been aware that the tree was not in season for figs, and he might even have conjured up some figs for himself, if he really needed food. Also, Romans 13:1 seems to me like shameless rear-end-kissing; was a government that worshipped pagan gods really set up by the Christian God? And the Book of Revelation -- what kind of drugs was its author taking?

03-26-2002, 03:37 AM	#22
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	woodchuck: It's good to see a Christian here with a sense of humor. I personally don't have a problem with what I'll call your "philosophical reflections" on the nature of human life in the universe because I can relate to them, and I think most people can relate to them. As human beings, we're all in the same boat. We all have to decide the meaning and purpose of our lives. I think strong disagreements between people begin when you start specifically claiming that the Christian God is the God of the universe. Most of us here have read and studied the Bible and it's because of that most of us are atheists or agnostics of some sort. We reflect philosophically on our lives and come to different conclusions about meaning and purpose than Christians do.

03-26-2002, 10:29 AM	#25
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	lpetrich, If the cursing of the fig tree was a childish temper tantrum, then surely we all find something silly with it. Although, I don't think many Christians will grant that it was a temper tantrum. I believe it was a warning combined with a very graphic example. You know, a withering fig tree is one of those things you tend to remember. I doubt there was any real malice in the act. Our interpretation of the event (or any other biblical passage) comes from our beliefs. If you believe that Jesus was a shady character, you will interpret his actions as shady. If you believe Jesus was good, you will interpret his actions in a good light.

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