Secular Elation

Much debate occurs over the issue of whether or not Christianity is true.

I am honestly unversed with these issues. I was at an apologist board recently, and there was a page on evidence for the Jesus story by a rather powerful theologian. He seemed to be intelligent, and he appeared to have a good debating ability. He claimed to be a former atheist who found the 'truth' and he brought up arguments for Christianity that I myself couldn't counter (I'm far from an expert on the subject, anyway).

I'm not trying to give him too much credit, but these are my honest observations of this person. Despite our little encounter, he wasn't able to convince me, of course--he failed to prove his god's existence, he failed to rationalize the bogus claims of Christianity, and he failed to disspell evolution, among other things (the Jesus bit seemed to be his strong point). So don't worry, I'm still skeptical. Of course, he simply denounced "the way you people think" in return--that is, our "way" of insisting on meticulous examination of evidence and our demand for proof.

But then there are the intelligent secular scholars as well. I read their arguments on gods and religions, and they are simply compelling. Again, I know nothing about the Jesus story so I cannot comment on their ability in that respect.

But now to the point of my post: even if the Christian religion is true, I would not become a Christian. Sure, I might be aware that the Christian god exists and that the Bible is true, but because of all the philosophical disagreements I have with it's teachings, I would still be a far cry from submitting to this god.

I would first off denounce this god for residing in an unprovable existence. He would be deliberately deceiving those of us who are rationally skeptical and he would be manipulating logic. This god deserves criticism, not worship.

I would also point to the many problems I have with Christianity. Why did the Bible claim that "fools" (atheists) are "corrupt" and that "none do good?" I have been an atheist for quite some time and I honestly perceive myself as a 'good' person--I don't steal, lie (mostly ) kill, and I do service for my community, among other things. Most other atheists are the same way.

In addition, the simple fact that this god would eternally condemn me for not submitting to Christian doctrine is appalling enough. It is like saying, "You will believe in me and accept Jesus as your savior or you will face eternal damnation." Any such dictator in the real world would lose my support, for he would be threatening and coercing people to submit to his will, and I wholeheartedly repudiate such an outlook. The Christian god is similar to Joseph Stalin, who would have those who dissented from the Communist goverment promptly shot to death.

In conclusion, even if it was true (which I am convinced it is not), there's still so much against the Christian religion that I will never be one myself.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]</p>

Kassiana

A friend of mine says he's more likely to become a radish than a Christian. I'd say the same for myself.

Of course, I'm more likely to become a Mudslide or Belgian Dark Chocolate than a radish, but that's getting off topic.

ken1burton

Secular Elation.

Slight problem with the Christian Churches. They do not know God. They do not know the Truths of Scripture. If you reject what they show as God, No problem.

God has this thing called Grace. It is sufficient for errors of Doctrine, It is sufficient for disbelief (Actually God concluded all in unbelief). It is sufficient for Adolf Hitler, and it is sufficient for you. Murderer, Kill, Hate, Deny God, no problem. Grace has already covered it.

Daniel 9:24 shows He makes a end of sin and brings in everlasting righteousness. This happened at Calvary. The verse shows a seal, a seal the Disciples and Paul never were able to get past, and they spoke a lot of error.

Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, "After two days will He revive us, in the Third day He shall raise us up." The 1,000 year reign was the day of the cross, the rest of the dead lived not again till the 1,000 years was over (that takes us to the second day when they are revived)

Jesus made the tree evil by taking future sin, past and present sin then ended with His stripes. As the law in Deuteronomy 24:!6 requires every man to be put to death for His own sin. The sin BELONGS to Jesus. Dying a sinner got Him the keys to death and hell he needed to get.

He descended into hell, and Bore evil fruit, or got them all out of hell.
Hell ended the third day.

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Now we have freewill, there is no reward to sway us, no punishment to push us into belief. If you care to know God and to share Him, fine, but there is no reward coming, we all have the righteousness of Christ from Job 33:26, We all have all the riches of heaven already coming.

God proves Himself. God speaking through the prophets for over 1500 years, The Jewish nation is a witness that the Old Testament existed 400 years before Mary gave birth at Bethlehem. And that it is not changed to fit Jesus.

The prophecies show God exists as only God would be able to set up all the prophecies for one day in time when all are fulfilled. and the prophecies show that Jesus is who God used to fulfill the prophecies.

How the prophecies all fit into one day goes into a lot of detail, as there are hundreds of prophecies. I do have most of them written out.

Ken

Goliath

I absolutely agree, Secular Elation. The best that any xian can do to convert me is to prove that their god exists. Of course, even then, I will never be an xian, because I will never follow such a god.

I would quite honestly rather die than become xian.

Sincerely,

Goliath

SaguaroJen

ITA.

If a god exists, I imagine she finds Christianity ridiculous.

Pantheists seem likely to get the best seats in heaven.

Daggah

Then the ultimate conclusion one must reach is that god is incompetent.

SharonDee

If the Christian God exists (and the only way I'll know this is if he gives me a howdy-do), he's going to have to explain to me what it really is that he expects of Christians. (There's too much conflict among the faithful to trust them on this matter.) If he does this and I don't find his expectations unreasonable, THEN I'll become a Christian.

woodchuck

secular elation- hi, my name's eef. I was reading your reasons for never believing Christianity, and I thought I'd put in my two cents (not forcing anything, nobody get all defensive on me) First off: (this isn't an argument, just a comment) I've met tons of people who have said they'd NEVER believe who are today believers- including myself- so watch out.

Anyway, I know that probably seemed weak but your comments sound so familiar.

You speak of the Christian God residing in an unprovable existence. If we're arguing the christian God than we need to keep it in line with everything the scriptures say of this God- that is that there is also Satan- the deciever. I think that if you've chosen to reject God than you can come up with an alternate reason for everything he does- heck, even people who saw God work firsthand in the bible still, later on disbelieved and decided that it just must have been something else. When God spoke from heaven and said "this is my son" those surrounding that didn't want to believe said "it thundered". I think allot of us think that if God made our macaroni and cheese get up and walk into a formation that read "hey secular, this is god, believe in me- I love you" if you're heart has already rejected God then you'll say your macaroni accidentally landed that way.

The lasting impression of a stupendous event is rare. Life isn't made up of stupendous events, it's reality- it's day by day, choice by choice- it's personal- and God would rather be personal than stupendous. When something that seems beyond reality happens to us, I think the filing system in our mind won't usually file those memories under "rational events" but closer to the "dreams and unclear thoughts" file. that's why God meets us on a personal level, that's why Christ came as a regular man and not some big rich king or mighty God like super human. So I think to expect God to appear to you in some stupendous happening, is to miss the point of God even wanting you to see him anyway. He created reality the way it is because he wants it that way- personal, real, and intimate.

I would also argue that if Satan has any brains at all, he'd do exactly what I'm talking about: he'd create a comfortable set of beliefs outside of God, he'd influence a logic that makes God illogical- I know that maybe that sounds crazy to you- but look at your life and be open to the fact that maybe there's a force that doesn't want you to ever believe, but on the contrary wants you to pursue a life where you feel meaningless and he never wants you to experience God's love. As Dr. Gregory Boyd told his Father in "letters from a skeptic": "God can holler all he wants, but if people are covering up their ears they say 'why doesn't God talk?'"

You also said this:
"Why did the Bible claim that "fools" (atheists) are "corrupt" and that "none do good?" I have been an atheist for quite some time and I honestly perceive myself as a 'good' person."

I think that we need to define good here- if we're keeping in line with christianity, only God is good. If life is only truly lived "in Christ" then to consider yourself good apart from God is evil. For to convince yourself or anyone else that life is good without God is leading them to death. When you meet Christ, the life you lived previously becomes so visibly corrupt that you consider it death- for the truth is that it is death. I make a lot of choices that are contrary to society- for instance, keeping my virginity until marriage. I don't condemn unbelievers for not doing what I do- but in the light of my experience I see that life is better apart from that, I DESIRE-stronger than my worldly desires because of Christ in me- to keep God's law- because God's law is a guideline to the best experience of life possible. (once again, if their is a satan, wouldn't he be trying to convince our culture that God's laws are stiff and boring- and that the real fun is outside God's law?)

The bible isn't calling you evil so much as it's calling your disposition evil. You seem like a nice enough guy from your post, and I've met lots of atheists, new agers, and all sorts of people who are incredibally good and nice, and I've also met allot of people who claim to be christians who are total jerks and snobs. All I'm saying is that if God created us to be in a relationship with Him, then to live contently without him is like a car running on apple juice- it's just gonna mess it up and break it down.

Your last point:
"...the simple fact that this god would eternally condemn me for not submitting to Christian doctrine is appalling enough. It is like saying, "You will believe in me and accept Jesus as your savior or you will face eternal damnation."

God's whole purpose is love- love must have liberty- that is, free will and choice. God has given us the choice to love him or not to love him- he's giving us the choice between good and evil. And just because we think we can reauthor good and evil doesn't make it true. If God is good, the absence of God is evil. We can disguise evil as our own interpretation of good, but that doesn't change the fact that it's evil, it just makes us more comfortable with a clouded evil.

As far as the whole eternal condemnation bit- like I said, if God's good then his absence is evil- then to choose to live absent of God is to choose to live eternally absent of God, therefore eternally absent of good, and therefore fully engulfed by the evil you've chosen.

C.S. Lewis describes hell as a place "locked from the inside". Hell is a place for those so hardened in evil that they could never soften to good. Choice by choice we solidify ourselves one way or another- we make freedom become un-free in the end. I believe it's God's goal for man to make love become his nature instead of choice- but it couldn't start that way because love can't exist without choice. On the other end of that we can be solidified in evil too. Look at a drug addict- it started with a single choice to try a drug, it ends in an imprisonment to that drug. Someone who seems hateful and mean through and through, at sometime along time ago made a choice to be that way, and he made it again and again- and eventually became it. But I believe that this earth is that probation period inbetween, where even the hardest here on earth can still be broken and softened by the Spirit.

The bible says that God's desire is that "none should perish" I know you've heard that one a million times. But his biggest desire is a love relationship with you and me and everyone else he's chosen to exist. To reject that is to reject life- and to accept death eternally.

You try to compare God with forceful dictators like Stalin. There is no comparison. Stalin's way of governing is based on his opinions and interpretations of this world, God's way of governing is based on his knowledge of his creation and knowing it's purpose and meaning. He's not trying to dictate you, he's trying to give you life to the fullest.

I know that you're probably unmoved by all this, and I'm not trying to convert you- I'm just making my point like you made yours. From my point of view it would be incredibally evil of me not to do my best to answer those questions if I believe that you're missing out on life and headed for death, but not to condemn you for your choices. I hope this helps even a little. Thanks for reading if you've read thus far. Feel free to reply- I'm open to there being holes in my argument.
-EEF

Skid

woodchuck - welcome to the board. I hope you enjoy your time here.

I agree with Secular Elation, for all the reasons that were cited, as well as others. Among the most compelling reasons not to be a Christian was pointed out:

I'm sure that your post will be dissected by others more articulate than me, but it seems that you are saying (albeit nicely) that without Christ, we are "evil" and destined for "death".

You said:
I'll be honest, and tell you that I find that statement extremely condescending and arrogant. You are indirectly condemning us -- "headed for death" is not a condemnation?

I'm sure you are doing this out of genuine concern for us, but please realize that there are many other people who have come to this board with different formulas for salvation. Why should we follow your "choices", rather than, say, a Muslims?

Do you honestly believe that those without Christ are headed for death? If so, will God condemn those who have never heard of Jesus? What exactly do you mean by death -- is it a literal hell, or simply "separation from God"?

I'm very interested in yours (and other Christians) answers to these questions. As pointed out earlier, even if Christianity was true, the answers to these questions (as dictated by Christian doctrine) would keep me from ever considering myself a Christian.

NOGO

Let's make it easy ... show me one such prophecy that was fulfilled in Jesus.