Whispers

QUOTE---Whispers: I appreciate your sincerity (well, it seems like sincerity ). You have found a formula for a sense of wellbeing that works for you and you very kindly want to pass it on to the rest of us.

Thank you kindly =) Rather than trying to pass it on to you guys, I am exploring decisions which will affect my own life and hoping to share my view and learn from yours...

QUOTE---Telling people that they should trust in something that they see no reason to believe exists in the first place is like attempting to sell them snake oil.

I agree with you here completely, and please believe me when I say I would never try to convert someone to my way of thinking or trusting. That does not mean that I will not delicately disagree with you though, if our views differ. As far as I can see, the only way to really teach truth, is to live it, and allow people to see truth being lived. Those that see truth, naturally enquire further into the source.

QUOTE---I am not sure of what you mean to imply by the concept of a "random fluke of chemicals coming together".

What I mean, is that if there is no creator, then there is no ultimate purpose. I will probably get flamed for this, but if no creator sarted evolution rolling forward, than it has no ultimate plan, and therefore the results of the evolutionary purpose are simply accidents or flukes. If they are not accidents or flukes, than they were intended and if that is the case, what intended them to happen?

QUOTE---So let's put that on one side and suppose that human beings and other species have arisen as the result of natural processes, some of which, at least, we understand. And that furthermore people who do research in neurology and the workings of the human brain and other systems are beginning to understand the complicated structures and biochemistry that lead to our thoughts, actions and emotions. In recent experiments it has even proved possible to cause mystic experiences as a result of brain stimulation in some subjects. Some, like Richard Dawkins, who was one of the guinea pigs, experienced nothing.

I hear you, and I am amazed by how much we are learning about ourselves and the world around us. The questions of existence however, are not being answered quite yet...

QUOTE---There is no doubt that some people will sacrifice themselves, or try to kill others as a result of certain kinds of stimulation, whether external or innate. Three weeks ago, a friend of mine was murdered by her schizophrenic son. No doubt he heard voices telling him to do it, as many such sufferers do. Others would go out and kill or be killed for the sake of a demagogue like Hitler. Belief of some kind is often involved in such actions, but there is always an unbelieving minority who don't go along with the crowd.

The thing is, if I am a crack addict, I might go out and kill for my next fix. Belief is not really an issue there.... If I am a paid soldier, I might go and kill a lot of "enemies", because those in power ordered me to do so. What I believe there, is second to what those above me believe....what I am trying to get to, is that whilst I recognise that belief and abuse of spiritual scriptures have led people to committ horror, many other things do the same. Its just that if you are Atheist, you may tend to focus and notice the results of religion more than other things which might lead to horror.

QUOTE---As with so much in science, much is still unknown about the workings of the brain, but it is already known which parts of the brain are active in meditation and certain other religious activities. In the end, all religion may be reduced to electro-chemistry, whether random fluke or not.

I wonder if one day in the future, a scientist makes a discovery that reveals the purpose (if any) of our existence? Imagine coming in from work and watching the news. A scientist in the USA whilst checking DNA structures discovered a code embedded deeply within the base structures. Using massive super computers, they have de-coded the strange patterns and discovered that it appears to be a message directly from our creator. Just imagine it =p

Stephen T-B

Hmmm...just imagine it.

Just imagine that a scientist investigating how a sweet pea produces blooms of exquisite pink discovers a fairy hard at work with a fairy paint brush.

Just imagine that an explorer in the arctic discovers Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.

Just imagine jumping off the roof of a ten-storey building and being able to fly!

Imagination is a wonderful thing. for the very reason that it is liberated from the constraints of reality.

Joe V.

I would consider it little more than a bloated ego when people believe they have a special place in the universe, granted to them by some all-powerful being. The universe is a big place, mind-boggling big, so big, it seems, that most people can't accept just how insignificant it makes us all, so most would rather believe we're here for some special purpose, that their lives are important and meaningful. And who can completely blame them? There's so much mindless, unnecessary suffering in the world, it's comforting to think that it's all part of some greater good, but is it the truth? Are we really here for a reason, or are we here because of some cosmic accident? What is the truth and are you willing to accept it even if it's unsettling? Can you humble yourself to the point where you accept that this life is all that there is? It's not an easy thing to do, but most of us here have done this, and I would say that most of us are better off because of it.

Whispers, why do you have faith in what you've been told about God and Heaven? Why do you trust those who have told you about these things? Do you really believe that you'll live forever in an eternal paradise, despite a total lack of evidence for such a place? What makes you so certain that such a place exists?

- Joe

Stephen T-B

Strange that it’s always my fault that I don’t believe in someone else’s god.
“Look,” she says, “all you need is Faith. Don’t look for evidence or proofs because without Faith you won’t see them. Once you make that leap in Faith, you’ll be able to believe.”

But that isn’t the way it works.
The way it works is like this: Person A (let’s call him Xenaphrobicaligonima, or X for short) hates the idea of dying, hates the idea of being alone, hates the idea of being the helpless toy of Fate which swirls him around the Great Big Basin of Life like he was a bit of fluff and ends up going down the plughole, and is therefore deeply relieved when told that there’s a divine being - all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving - which will take him in his almighty hand and soothe away his worries, his fears, his loneliness, his uncertainties and, when he “dies” give his soul the most wonderful home imaginable, for ever and ever and ever.
Belief in this divine being does indeed soothe away his worries, his fears, his loneliness and his uncertainties. It gives him a reason for his existence, and provides him with moral guidelines for the conduct of his life.
The Belief gives him Faith that the divine being will deliver everything he’s told it will.
It does not work the other way around. Faith does not give him Belief.

DMB

That's the nub. That's what makes people of many sorts keen to believe all sorts of things: the need for purpose, the need for them personally to mean something. It may be that there simply is no purpose. Suppose you found that out: how would you cope with it?

As a non-adherent of the various extant and extinct religions, it seems clear to me that a major function of religion is to supply "purpose", even if people have to make it up in the first place.

I find all this very curious, because I have never been able to take the first step. I have never understood why the life of human beings should have some external "purpose" or "meaning". Agreed that we all start out as the centre of a personal universe, and, in common with other species, we have a strong survival instinct that serves to maintain our personal universe and our place in it. But given the advantage of our locally uniquely powerful brains, why should we use these intellectual powers in fruitless pursuit of the will-o'-the-wisp of purpose?

We know we have a finite life full of struggles on this planet. We know of the existence of no other life. Surely the best use of our resources is to do our best to improve conditions on this planet, both for ourselves and for our fellow humans. Science, although it can be misapplied, has demonstrated its power to improve life. Over the same few centuries, theology has added nothing.

Mageth

What I mean, is that if there is no creator, then there is no ultimate purpose. I will probably get flamed for this, but if no creator sarted evolution rolling forward, than it has no ultimate plan, and therefore the results of the evolutionary purpose are simply accidents or flukes. If they are not accidents or flukes, than they were intended and if that is the case, what intended them to happen?

I have a bit of a quibble with this. There is the concept, held by some, of a Deistic creator who created without any purpose other than, perhaps, the thrill of creating, and with little or no concern for what's going on other than perhaps curiosity. So it could be that there is a creator but no "ultimate purpose".

Normal

I know this wasn't directed at me, but purpose is what drives all desire, and if you take any action in life it is for a purpose that you create. Religion might be seen as a way of uniting the main, objective, or external purposes of people into a goal that is beneficial to all.


This seems to be the case of giving way too much credit to science and way too little credit to theology. Theologians have tried to reconcile desire (purpose) with good intentions to create somewhat of a framework for virtue for people to operate in. OTOH A fairly large majority of scientific advances have been military and weapons based. I'm not saying science is bad and theology is always good, it's just you seem to exaggerate both to the extremes.

Stephen T-B

I'd like to know how many diseases have been cured by theology.
How many people have been saved from starvation by theology.
Or losing their way at sea.
Or were helped by it to improve their husbandry.
Or were saved by it from an erupting volcano.
Or have been enabled by it to travel vast distances quickly and safely n order to be re-united with loved ones.
Or been freed, because of it, from the drudgery which kept half the population of Europe and the United States on their knees and at the kitchen sink and the mangle.

Theology didn’t free slaves.
It hasn’t prevented wars.
It hasn’t ended injustice.

Frankly, I don’t think it’s been of much use at all.

Whispers

QUOTE---I'd like to know how many diseases have been cured by theology.

Some would say disease of the spirit. =p

QUOTE---How many people have been saved from starvation by theology.

I imagine that the many missionaries that work with the starving in Africa etc, have saved a few. Their belief in god, has led some of them to devote their lives to others...


QUOTE---Theology didn’t free slaves.

Slaves to sin? =p


QUOTE---It hasn’t prevented wars.
It hasn’t ended injustice.

Bold statement. Perhaps and perhaps not. Who can say?

Whispers

Is that what u believe then?