Tercel

I already know what atheists think: I've posted almost as long and as much on these boards as you have.
I was simply amused at the idea that you thought I contradicted myself within the same post.

I can deny it if I want.

Christians have plenty of fun arguing about various theological issues. What virtually no one disagrees upon is what God's will is for us as his servants. If you ask a Christian "does God want people to love their neighbour?", just how many do you think will respond negatively? If you ask a Christian "does God want people to help those in need?" just how many Christians would say "no"? If you ask Christians "does God want us to be servants of others, considering others more important than ourselves?" how many do you think would say "no"?

For those who actually want to be servants of God and do his will in the world, the message is abundantly clear. For those who want to debate points of theology or church services etc the message is not so clear. To me that's simply a reflection of what God actually cares about. I believe (as another poster in this thread jokingly stated ) God doesn't care whether you believe in him.

openeyes

If you asked most atheists if they should treat others the way they'd like to be treated, they'd say yes.

If you ask Christians the questions you asked above, I supposed they'd say yes, but would they then act the way "God" wants them to? Sure, they love their neighbor, if the neighbor looks pretty much like them and doesn't demand too much. Same with the people in need. I'm not so sure about the last one; I'm afraid many would try to say they really need to take care of themselves first and don't consider themselves less important than others. They may pretend they're placing themselves second, but they're really not.

ex-xian

I've found this thread entertaining and informative. Unfortunately, most xians are arguing about prayer from a perspective of communion with god. If praying makes you feel better, then, by all means, pray. I'll meditate, or do some mathematics, or drink.

The argument in my OP has went unrefuted, as far as I have seen (if I missed a post the referred to it, I'm sorry, just point it out). Does this mean that no xians ever pray for the salvations of the friends or family? If you do, how do you repsond to the OP?

Treacle Worshipper

Does that mean that you don't believe in hell and/or do believe in salvation by works?
Just trying to get an idea where you're coming from
TW
ps. Maybe you could PM your response to me if we're not going to sidetrack this thread further.

Kvalhion

I think prayer is pretty comical. You can pray to your god, but you have to word things in such a way so that when nothing happens, it reaffirms your prayer.

How many prayer vigils did the family of Laci Peterson have while she was missing? It seems rather obvious that prayer produces no results whatsoever.. materialistic or otherwise.

I must digress, however. The just and merciful god "allowed Laci to be found." OooH! Well, that just explains everything.

I feel badly for the Peterson family, but twisting prayer and religion around in such a way seems a bit ridiculous. The same good and bad things happen to people who pray and people who don't pray. The same good and bad things happen to people who pray to Allah, the Pink Unicorn, the Christian God, etc.

Prayer works?

The only reason "prayer works" is because no matter what the end result is, you will find a way to justify it in your mind as being 'the will of god'.

Tercel

Exactly. God is the God of all. He hasn't hidden away his will from those who don't have the Bible: People who've never heard of the Christian God can know and do his will too.
"[The Gentile's] conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God through Jesus Christ will judge the secret thoughts of all." -Romans 2:15-16

Unfortunately, probably not...
"Not everyone who callss me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When Judgement Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!' -Matthew 7:21-23

mike_decock

If you ask an atheist, "is it good to love your neighbor?", just how many do you think will respond negatively? If you ask an atheist "is it good to help those in need?" just how many atheists would say "no"? If you ask atheists "is it good to be servants of others, considering others more important than ourselves?" how many do you think would say "no"?

-Mike...

Tercel

LOL. Kind of and kind of. I would say "I do" and "I don't", but that might give the the wrong impression.
All is revealed here. (Where I post under the name Starlight). The discussion does wander a bit - I do suggest you read it all as it's one of the better threads I've been in and covers a good range of topics. However if you get bored, the meat of my explanation is in a post three-quarters of the way down page 2.

I would be interested to know (after you have read what I believe) what you think my answers to those questions should be. (Lots of people ask me and about the best I seem to be able to do is say "my beliefs don't fit your questions" )

Tercel

To repeat myself: Yes, exactly.

GH

I see people do this same sort of thing all the time. Some event X will happen. Because of his previously held belief Y, person Z will assume a link between X and Y. It seems that whoever wrote that part of Romans saw everyone behaving similarly and decided it was his god, the Christian God, at work.

If you travel the world and notice that everyone everywhere generally treats others with respect, and helps the less fortunate, and serves others, one possible conclusion is that the Christian God is causing everyone to behave that way because even the ones who have never heard of him "can know and do his will." Another possible conclusion is that humans share a general concept of proper behavior that doesn't require the intervention of the Christian God, or any other god.

I'm not any sort of expert, but the things mentioned here seem to be the basic structural components of society. If you can't trust your neighbors (because they don't "do unto others..."), then you are in as much danger from within the village as from without. When times are tough, you need to be able to rely on your neighbors to help you out, and you need to return the favor. That leads to a stronger village. Thus, it makes sense to help those in need and serve others (and that ties right back into "do unto others..."). No gods required.