ex-xian

I know there aren't many theists around these days, but maybe xian or magus will respond.

My grandmother is a very worrisome woman. Back in my fundies days, she would frequently confide her concerns about her children and grandchildren who were not "in church." I, naturally shared her concerns, and we promised to pray together for our families salvation. Well, she knows that I've stopped attending church, but she doesn't know about my change in philosophy.

My grandmother is now concerned about my soul as well, and she takes every opportunity to tell me so. I smile, give her a hug and tell that everythings fine. She is full of concern b/c, I believe, deep down, she understands the futility of prayer.

If a person is a calvinist, then everything is foreordained by god. Prayer is useless in this case b/c god has already decided everything that will happen. Praying will not change anything, no matter how fervent and righteous the pray-er is.

On the other hand, if one is a arminiest (sp?), then god has given every man free will to choose or reject him. God will not impose his will upon anyone, b/c that would be contrary to the choose of the free moral agent. Prayer is useless in this case also. No matter how much the xian prays and intercedes on behalf of his/her friends' souls, god will not interfere to force that person to be saved.

No matter how you slice it, prayer just won't work.

Amie

Prayer works. I think its one of the greatest things we can do for one another.

I really wish I had more time right now ex-xian. Ironically I almost opened a thread yesterday called "The ineffectuality of prayer?NO NO NO" but I did not have the time I would have liked to devote to it.
I am glad you started this one.

Opera Nut

I have no evidence that god exists; I have no evidence that prayer works; I have no evidence that god has ever talked to me. I have been a Christian before. It made me suicidal, since I figured that death was the only way to get away from the jackals tearing me up and telling me what a no good sinner I am.

ju'iblex

how? what evidence is there to back this up? for who? when has it worked? can you gave us some concrete examples? does it work on a psychological placebo basis, or in a physical tangible real sense?

lpetrich

And what has all your praying produced?
A rain of manna from heaven?
Some water turned into wine?
Multiplication of bread and fish?
Someone very sick jumping out of bed in full health?
Restoration of amputated limbs?
Splitting the waters of a river so you could walk across its riverbed?

sakrilege

Like the prayers of Lesley Ann Downey? Or is that a 'Santa Claus' prayer?

openeyes

I, too, am very curious to see some concrete examples on how prayer works.

It's been my experience that the lives of those who pray and those who don't experience the same ups and downs. Prayer seems a comfort to some who try it, but certainly more of a hindrance to real solutions for others. On the other hand, not everyone is calm and unburdened with a non-god, non-prayer view of things, but that has more to do with our individual biologies/experiences etc. It doesn't tell me prayer is good and that it works.

Tercel

I find this a rather sad attitude to prayer. Sad because as much as I'd like to claim it's an atheist straw-man of Christians beliefs, I see many Christians effectively saying the same things.
To me this view treats God like he's Santa Claus. Not in that "he doesn't exist like Santa", but because it expects endless freebies. God is treated like he's a cosmic vending machine where the coinage is prayer and the output is all the goodies you can think of.

This seems to me a very low view of God indeed. Surely, if your conception of 'God' is worthy of the name, you believe that God already knows what you want and need far better than you do. And I sincerely hope that if you are a Christian, you believe that God doesn't need to be convinced, cajoled, talked-into or otherwise badgered to do the best thing as if He was a wayward child or uncaring. God knows what's best, without us telling him, and He is quite capable of doing what He decides without us ordering Him, and quite capable of doing this Himself, without us trying to change His mind.

Consider "The Lord's Prayer". It doesn't give a list of "people I want converted" or "miracles I want done NOW!" Rather, it merely says "your will be done", a reminder for the sake of the person praying, not to encourage God. It continues by concentrating on the person praying, their own relationship with God and with others... "Forgive my sins, as I forgive the sins of those who sin against me"... reminding the person praying about their responsibilities towards others.

Christians are supposed to be servants of God, not God the servant of Christians. Yes? It is surely the servant's duty to do the will of the master, not vice versa. It is not the servant's place to make demands of the master as if he were a cosmic vending machine. Hence the duty of a Christian is to serve God in whatever circumstances we find outselves. He has revealed that this service consists of loving our neighbours, of helping the needy, and doing good to all. The duty of Christianity is to serve, not to be served. If we are really doing our best to carry this out, then I think when we pray for the strength to do our best at it and that God would help us be more loving, that we will not be disappointed.

emotional

Depends what you pray for. If you pray for spiritual growth, then prayer inevitably works. But if you pray for changing something in the real, material world (such as healing the sick or multiplying loaves of bread) then it won't work, because natural law is absolute and unchangeable. Prayer to change the course of natural law cannot work anymore than prayer to make 2+2=5 can. God set the laws of nature in the beginning and made them immutable.



Ultimately I agree with Ingersoll that the hands that help are far better than the lips that pray. It doesn't matter what you believe or how you pray; all that matter is that you do good works.

Shake

Wow! Tercel manages to contradict himself within the same post! Let's take a look, shall we?
OK, before I get to where the contradiciton is, let's ask a question. Would not a good master be open to the needs of his servant so that he may better serve the master? I've learned that a good leader listens to those he leads and takes their concerns into consideration when making his decisions. How do you know what his will is anyway?

Moving on:Here the pray-er is asking to be forgiven! But above you said we are not to make demands of "the master."

Surely above you were speaking in terms of ideal Christians, which it would seem, almost no one is. I say this because the media has recently been filled with letters and words saying, "Pray for peace." "Pray for our soldiers." "God bless America." Some of this coming from our own President!
So if this is the case, why do people ask things like the above? What then is the point of prayer? Other than reminding the Xian of how they should act, does it serve any real purpose? I'm thinking no.



I am reminded of the words of the great George Carlin, "I pray to Joe Pesci." He says it seems to work about the same, he gets the same results.