Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cydonia · 07-07-2003, 06:25 PM

Hell, Nick, even on Earth there's a possiblity of parole.

winstonjen · 07-07-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hedwig
What is your definition of righteous, btw?

Whatever his god does, hence if his god told him to rape a 2-month old baby, I am sure he'd do it in a heartbeat.

cydonia · 07-07-2003, 06:27 PM

Righteous is whatever God defines it as apparently.

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 07-07-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cydonia
Hell, Nick, even on Earth there's a possiblity of parole.

Yeah, you're right. God doesn't offer that chance. Even if you do the divine equivalent of spitting on the sidewalk you get God's equivalent of the death penalty.

-Nick

agnawstick · 07-07-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Sorry, doesn't work that way - Jesus already had eternal bliss before coming to Earth. You get nothing out of this that you didn't already have.

Ok, let me get this straight. Jesus has existed for eternity. He goes down to earth, doesn't accomplish much for his first quarter century. He is just chilling, being God the carpenter. He preaches for 3 years, the gets crucified, and spends the rest of eternity in heaven, to appease himself. So just assume eternity is say 30 trillion years. Then God just kills off heaven or something, or he gets tired and dies.

Jesus is in heaven for all of it but 1 trillionth of his existence, and he sacrificed oh plenty. I just don't get this. Jesus is God, God is God. God gets mad at his creation, so he sends himself down in human form to appease himself.

It would be like my kids are not listening to their parents, I am going to command my wife to brutally kill herself, and only then can we forgive them. If that is what floats your boat.

That is why the Christians got it wrong in deifying Jesus. If we had a story of a mortal man, who is told by God that he has to give up everything and get nailed to a cross, giving up all he has, in order to appease the big guy, it is a more powerful story. Jesus being God too makes it lose it's power.

A day on the cross for God is not exactly the biggest sacrifice ever. There are parents who work in abusive sweatshops where they get beaten for years and years to support their kids. Some of them die. Their sacrifice seems more noble to me then God killing himself in order to appease himself.

winstonjen · 07-07-2003, 06:45 PM

Magus, let me repost what I said on another topic, as it doesn't seem that you'll take a look at it.

You said:

Quote:

Here is an idea. Before you determine whats a noble sacrifice and what isn't-- Go out, get beaten, whipped till your spine and ribs show, spit on, kicked, insulted, abused, while carrying a couple hundred pound wooden cross down a street of angry people who hate you, and then get laid on that cross - have giant iron stakes pounded through your wrists and your feet, then have a crown of razor sharp thorns put on your head, slashing into your skull and face , followed by being hoisted up on the cross in front of hundreds of people, with your shredded back rubbing up and down the splintered cross, while you are trying to support yourself on your impaled feet so you don't suffocate in the blistering heat, and then finally have a giant spear stabbed through you side. Now do all this in order to save murderers, rapists, theives, and people that hate you - while gaining nothing in return that you didn't already have ( in other words - coming back to life and going to paradise doesn't apply since its nothing you didn't already have). Once you go through all that, then you can make the claim that you have a clue what you are talking about in relation to suffering and sacrifice.

Thanks for the big, fat Non-Sequitor, Magus. How does the suffering one endures qualify someone to judge what is good or bad? Perhaps we should let masochists dictate the laws?

Magus, I am not trying to mock you, but please, think before your post if you do not want to be ridiculed. Try to refute your arguments if you were on the side of your opponents.

Amaranth · 07-07-2003, 07:03 PM

I knew this guy, right, who owned a lot of duplexes (bear with me if you've heard this one). Well, all these folks he rented to kept breaking the rules of the leases they signed. Now, he kind of wanted to evict them, but he really wanted to be their friends to. So, what he does is, he kicks his son out of his mansion and rents a duplex to him. Then he evicts his son because the other people broke their lease agreements, and lets him move back into the mansion. Now here's the tricky part - As long as all these people say "Dude, that sucks" to his son, they get to stay.

Hmm...needs work.

Thor Q. Mada · 07-07-2003, 07:13 PM

agnawstick,

You are trying to find logic in a story which has none of this. It is impossible to do that. Therefore the xians have found following solution:
1)Divinity doesn't follow our logic.
2)You just have to believe.
There are no why's or but's here.
Just blind following.
The timeline thing iwhich you mention is one of my favorites. It has always been my theroy that an eternal living being cannot be aware of beings that live at a different speed.
For example in my theory, we cannot be aware of beings living around us, who's entire lifespan is an infinitely small fraction of a second.
We would also not be able to detect or diagnose a disease which has an incubation time longer than our average life time.
ML

cydonia · 07-07-2003, 07:17 PM

This is true, a few times after pretty heated debates, a christian as finally given in and said, "I don't know why. God's ways are unkown to man." or something fairly similar.

It seems they want to be on an even playing field, since they truly understand logic and reason, but when it gets too confusing, that goes out the window, god said it, that settles it. What's the saying?

fried beef sandwich · 07-07-2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaranth
I knew this guy, right, who owned a lot of duplexes (bear with me if you've heard this one).

Ctrl-C. Ctrl-V. Ctrl-S.

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07-07-2003, 06:25 PM	#21
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Hell, Nick, even on Earth there's a possiblity of parole.

07-07-2003, 06:27 PM	#23
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Righteous is whatever God defines it as apparently.

07-07-2003, 07:03 PM	#27
Amaranth Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kansas City Posts: 279	I knew this guy, right, who owned a lot of duplexes (bear with me if you've heard this one). Well, all these folks he rented to kept breaking the rules of the leases they signed. Now, he kind of wanted to evict them, but he really wanted to be their friends to. So, what he does is, he kicks his son out of his mansion and rents a duplex to him. Then he evicts his son because the other people broke their lease agreements, and lets him move back into the mansion. Now here's the tricky part - As long as all these people say "Dude, that sucks" to his son, they get to stay. Hmm...needs work.

07-07-2003, 07:13 PM	#28
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	agnawstick, You are trying to find logic in a story which has none of this. It is impossible to do that. Therefore the xians have found following solution: 1)Divinity doesn't follow our logic. 2)You just have to believe. There are no why's or but's here. Just blind following. The timeline thing iwhich you mention is one of my favorites. It has always been my theroy that an eternal living being cannot be aware of beings that live at a different speed. For example in my theory, we cannot be aware of beings living around us, who's entire lifespan is an infinitely small fraction of a second. We would also not be able to detect or diagnose a disease which has an incubation time longer than our average life time. ML

07-07-2003, 07:17 PM	#29
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	This is true, a few times after pretty heated debates, a christian as finally given in and said, "I don't know why. God's ways are unkown to man." or something fairly similar. It seems they want to be on an even playing field, since they truly understand logic and reason, but when it gets too confusing, that goes out the window, god said it, that settles it. What's the saying?

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