Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 03-04-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:


Hi Kosh

If you are serious that you really tried then I'm sorry you didn't seem to get anywhere...

Absolutely. Playing guitar on the "worship team",
a couple years on Church Council. And all I ever
got was a little voice in my head saying "Wait,
this doesn't add up"...oh yeah, that was probably
Satan, huh?

On the "it's your fault thing". Absolutely, my
best friends wife, a rabid pro-life hold-your-
kids-up-in-the-faces-of-those-entering-the-
clinic demonstrator type told us that the reason
my wife and I were having trouble getting pregnant
was because God was punishing us for not taking
a big stand on abortion (read that as not doing
exactly what she was doing).

Of course, the real problem was leftover from
my wifes annorexia in H.S., and a trip to the
vitamin college was all that was needed to
overcome Gods judgement....
(he he. "Here honey, you need some more vitamin
"S".... couldn't resist).

Marduk · 03-04-2002, 01:57 PM

"If she had any balls, she might have said that evil is evil and that God has his bad days, too."

If she had any balls, she would be most unusual!

HelenM · 03-04-2002, 02:12 PM

Kosh

*sigh*

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

love
Helen

Ron Garrett · 03-04-2002, 02:20 PM

She completely missed the point which HelenSL got, i.e that the Book of Job was written as a corrective to the common notion that suffering is the result of personal spiritual defect. The story's point in part is that gods are capricious and likely to sell out even the most righteous of men on a bet, and onlookers shouldn't assume a cause and effect relationship between sin and ill fortune. It wasn't that god had a plan, just that he was trying to prove a point to the accuser, and we see though it involved killing the family and destroying the property of one of his finest devotees, this didn't make god blink even once. Neat god. I see why Christians love him the way a battered child loves their abuser.

JL · 03-04-2002, 02:56 PM

Ironically enough a capricious and sometimes wicked God would actually be believable.

I can't help but think that any interptretation of Job is a massive contradiction within Christian logic.

A purely good God who torments his followers through no fault of their own.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Scotty · 03-04-2002, 03:58 PM

Actually, I thought Job's wife was killed along with all of Job's children, but he got new ones at the end so that made it all better (another instance of women as property).
I could be wrong of course, it has been a long time since I read that.

-Scott

sighhswolf · 03-04-2002, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oregon Slim:
The preacher at our local Unitarian hubbub gave a sermon today that to me shows the dangers of taking ancient spiritual wisdom seriously. The subject was evil in the world.

She said that there was evil in the world, and she gave an example of Hitler as someone who had been evil. Fair enough. But then she wandered into the story of Job and of all the terrible things that God had done to the righteous Job and she said that Job should have realized that those were not evil, just the breaks of the game. Things happen. God knows what he's doing. We weren't there when he built the earth, so we are too ignorant to complain. IOW, might makes right. Get used to it.

When the Nazis do it, it's evil. When God does it, don't complain. (She didn't mention the Republicans)

If she had any balls, she might have said that evil is evil and that God has his bad days, too.
Even quite a few, if you read the Bible.

Or, maybe she should have told us that when people give us the Hoseannas we demand, we shouldn't take them too seriously, or we might forget to be considerate of others.

Or, she might have said that the story of Job shows us that our collective moral sensibility has grown a little in a couple thousand years and it's time to imagine a better God than folks got by with back then.

Or, she might have told us that the wise ancients gave us a story of God's capriciousness as an apt metaphor for his apparent absence from the universe.

Instead, she just stood up for the whole sadistic story at face value. Can anyone suggest a worthwhile lesson in the story Job? One that makes sense to a person who wants to strengthen his own ability to choose right and not wrong?

And here I was after being unemployed and jobless for so long thinking this was a post about a Job........
Man was I disappointed..................

Wolf

Ford Prefect · 03-04-2002, 07:10 PM

�Does God pervert justice? Or does the Almighty pervert righteousness?� Job 8:3

YES!!!

�Is it good to you that you should oppress, That you should despise the work of your hands, And smile on the counsel of the wicked?� Job 10:3

Job finally understands the personality of his God.

My roommate likes south park so I occasionally see an episode. In one a character, can�t remember the name, loses his faith in god because life seems unfair (he has a hemorrhoid). A really funny scene is were his parents try to restore his faith in god by telling him the story of Job.

HelenM · 03-05-2002, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scotty:
Actually, I thought Job's wife was killed along with all of Job's children, but he got new ones at the end so that made it all better (another instance of women as property).
I could be wrong of course, it has been a long time since I read that.

-Scott

No, actually his wife didn't die but she wasn't exactly a comfort either...see <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Job+2%3A8-10&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank"> Job 2:8-10</a>

You're right that at the end all Job's original
fortunes plus more are restored - now he has twice as many kids as he used to have <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Job+42%3A10-17&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">(Job 42:10-17)</a>. Clearly the implication is that therefore all's well that ends well and it doesn't matter what he lost since he got it (and more) back again. I think it's hard to imagine anyone losing ten children and thinking 'oh it's fine as long as I have at least ten more' but to focus on that would be to miss the points being made in the story, in which the kids Job had later are considered appropriate recompense/replacement, evidently.

love
Helen

Boro Nut · 03-05-2002, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
What about Job's wife? I've heard a lot of sermons on that books, and I don't think she ever gets enough credit.

Quote:

Originally posted by Boro Nut:
That's because he turned her into a pillow of salt, silly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Talulah:
That was Lot's wife.

Don't talk stupid. Where in the bibile does it say that Job turned Lot's wife into a pillow of salt? I doubt they ever met.

Boro Nut

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03-04-2002, 01:57 PM	#12
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"If she had any balls, she might have said that evil is evil and that God has his bad days, too." If she had any balls, she would be most unusual!

03-04-2002, 02:12 PM	#13
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Kosh sigh <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> love Helen

03-04-2002, 02:20 PM	#14
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	She completely missed the point which HelenSL got, i.e that the Book of Job was written as a corrective to the common notion that suffering is the result of personal spiritual defect. The story's point in part is that gods are capricious and likely to sell out even the most righteous of men on a bet, and onlookers shouldn't assume a cause and effect relationship between sin and ill fortune. It wasn't that god had a plan, just that he was trying to prove a point to the accuser, and we see though it involved killing the family and destroying the property of one of his finest devotees, this didn't make god blink even once. Neat god. I see why Christians love him the way a battered child loves their abuser.

03-04-2002, 02:56 PM	#15
JL Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mawkish Virtue, NC Posts: 151	Ironically enough a capricious and sometimes wicked God would actually be believable. I can't help but think that any interptretation of Job is a massive contradiction within Christian logic. A purely good God who torments his followers through no fault of their own. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

03-04-2002, 03:58 PM	#16
Scotty Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: OutBound Posts: 804	Actually, I thought Job's wife was killed along with all of Job's children, but he got new ones at the end so that made it all better (another instance of women as property). I could be wrong of course, it has been a long time since I read that. -Scott

03-04-2002, 07:10 PM	#18
Ford Prefect Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Boulder, Co Posts: 35	�Does God pervert justice? Or does the Almighty pervert righteousness?� Job 8:3 YES!!! �Is it good to you that you should oppress, That you should despise the work of your hands, And smile on the counsel of the wicked?� Job 10:3 Job finally understands the personality of his God. My roommate likes south park so I occasionally see an episode. In one a character, can�t remember the name, loses his faith in god because life seems unfair (he has a hemorrhoid). A really funny scene is were his parents try to restore his faith in god by telling him the story of Job.

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