crownboy

Hi everyone. While I'm an atheist, no one in my family knows this as yet, as this would probably make my living situation pretty difficult. However, when I do tell them, I expect to have to debate my family on the issue of the bible, especially "bible prophecy". The book of Daniel is of course considered a prophetic book by many Christains, including my family members, but I know there is much evidence against it. Problem is, I don't know much information myself . I know that Daniel was written way after it is allegedly said to be, and that there is some messed up history in it (Darius the Meade), but I haven't been able to get my hand on a really comprehensive criticism of the book. I tried the library here, but the link was broken. Can anyone point me to websites, books, essays, etc. that discusses this issue? Thanks in advance.

Vorkosigan

Yes.

GO to our LIBRARY (link above)
Click on MAGAZINES
find THE SKEPTICAL REVIEW
Read the issues for 1999, 2000 There is an extensive discussion of the book of Daniel.

Also, if you take out an Encyclopedia Britannica trial membership, you can read about it there. Any good study Bible will also give you the truth, that the Book of Daniel was written about 165-164 BC, and refers to events of its time.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1999/2/index.shtml" target="_blank">The discussion on Daniel more or less starts just before here</a>, but here is as good a place as any.

But why do you want your family to know? If I were in your shoes, I'd lay low, and let them know after they pay for your college education!


Vorkosigan

crownboy

Thanks for the info Vorkosigan.

I'm definitely not trying to let my family know right now, but when I move out or am in a position to do so. Letting them know while still in college won't be a problem because: a) despite being big time fundys, I'm pretty sure their not spiteful (at least I don't think so )

and b) I have a scholarship and financial aid that covers my tuition, anyway .

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: crownboy ]</p>

King Arthur

crownboy, a word of advice... Go ahead and present to your family your reasons for being an atheist, but don't think that they will understand or believe them. I promise that you can spit it at them till you're blue in the face and they'll never agree with you. I think the best thing you can do is state your reasons, do not argue with them (leaving if necessary), and simply make it plain that religion is no longer a subject for you. Don't ever quit studying though, I think it's important. Study all religions because they deal with the important question of whether we continue after death or just die and rot. I hope I don't just die and rot, so I keep looking. Maybe one day I'll see the light somewhere, maybe even in Christianity again, who knows.

Vorkosigan said:
"Any good study Bible will also give you the truth, that the Book of Daniel was written about 165-164 BC, and refers to events of its time."

Yeah... His fundy family is gonna believe the events in the book of Daniel refer only to events of its time. Get real!

Michael Ledo

This is what I write about Daniel in "Bible Bloopers..."


Daniel
“In all the details of the book [Daniel] no historical error has ever been proven.” –Josh McDowell


Outside of Revelation, Daniel is the most read book of prophecy. How accurate is this text? What did it really mean? Is it historically correct? These are justifiable questions for any ancient text. Some of the records we have recovered are the tablets of Cyrus. These were written in clay and baked into brick. These are the old original “authentic” texts considered by scholars to be the most historically accurate since they reflect government and business transactions and not some religious dogma. How does Daniel compare to these texts and Greek documents?

The dating of Daniel is placed between the years 167-164 B.C., due to its inaccurate description of the downfall of Antiochus IV, of which the author seemed unaware (Dan. 11:40-45). Antiochus did not conquer Egypt (11:42-45), but suffered from a humiliating withdrawal on Roman orders in 167 B.C. This is a famous story. Popilius, the Roman envoy, drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus. He demanded that the king give his answer to meet the Roman demand to withdraw before he left the circle. He withdrew. Antiochus died while campaigning in Persia.
 
Daniel was written by five different authors. The fifth one wrote in Greek, chapters 13 and 14. These chapters made it into the Roman Catholic Bible, but not the King James Bible. Three of the authors wrote in Aramaic. The fourth wrote in Hebrew (Dan 1:1-2:4a and 8:1-12:13). Fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls attest to this bilingual fact. The reader of Daniel should take note of the constant flip-flopping of the point of view of the author from first person to third person omnipresent, indicating multiple authors.
 
The first Daniel author wrote chapters three and four. It is paralleled to the story of Joseph in Egypt (Daniel = Joseph, Babylon = Egypt, Nebuchadezzar = Pharaoh). Joseph/Daniel interpret the king’s dreams. They are elevated in status. The Pharaoh changed Joseph’s name to Zaphnathpaaneah (Gen. 41:45). Daniel’s was changed by Nebuchdezzar to Belteshazzar (Dan. 4:8). The original story of Daniel comes from a poem in northern Syria dated 1500 B.C. It is part of the Ugarit texts recovered in 1930-1931. It is sometimes titled the “Epic of Daniel” or “The Tale of Aqhat.”
 
The hero in this story is likewise named Daniel. He is the son of God (El). This is the Daniel referred to by Ezekiel (Eze. 14:14, 14:20, 28:3). Daniel’s consort is Anath, the Caananite war-goddess. Joseph married Asenath (=Anath) in Gen. 41-45.
 
Third Daniel wrote the rest of chapter two and the apocalypse of chapter seven. Much of this was retroactive prophecy. The great image of Dan. 2:31-35 is well popularized; a man made of various elements symbolizing different kingdoms. The gold head was Nebuchadnezzar. The silver chest was the Median Empire. The bronze torso was Persia. The iron legs are the Macedonian Empire beginning with Alexander the Great. The iron and clay mixture represented a time during the Antiochene period when an attempt was made to include Egypt in this kingdom. The elements involved in the statue are common in Zoroastrian imagery. (The metals and clay are in the exact order of cleanliness used in the Zend-Avesta.)
 
Chapter seven (used for today’s end time prophecy) was meant to be used as prophecy during Antiochus IV’s reign. The four beasts represented the four previous kingdoms, as did the statue in chapter two. The eleventh horn (7:8) that arose and destroyed the others can be attributed to Antiochus himself. (Puritans claimed that Charles Stuart, seventeenth century opponent, was the eleventh horn, while others claimed it was Adolf Hitler.) Antiochus will be destroyed by “one like the Son of man” (Dan. 8:13), and the kingdom restored. Antiochus was a bad fellow hated by the Jews. He attempted to destroy their culture. (Egypt’s culture was destroyed by Alexander.) He built an altar to Zeus in the Jerusalem temple. He stopped sacrifices to Yahweh. He abolished circumcision, dietary laws, and observance of the Sabbath. The temple treasury was raided. He ordered the destruction of Jewish scriptures. Refusal of any of these laws carried the death penalty. The time of this great kingdom was to be established “a thousand two hundred and ninety days…from the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away” (Dan. 12:11). The persecution started in the winter of 167-166 B.C. This would put the beginning of the Magic Kingdom sometime in July/August 163 B.C. The Jews could not wait that long and revolted. The temple rights were restored Oct. 15, 164 B.C. by the Seleucid generals in a compromise. The Jews, still not satisfied, kept on fighting and invented Hanukkah on December 25, 164 B.C. when they purified the temple.
 
Second Daniel wrote chapters five and six. He murdered history. In 5:1-2 we have King Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar. Belshazzar was never a king, he was a Prince Regent and son of Nabonidos, not Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 5:28 describes the kingdom as being divided between the Medes and the Persians. This never happened. The Medes and Babylon did share conquered Assyria in 612 B.C. Medes was then conquered by Cyrus the Great of Persia in 549 B.C. and later Cyrus conquered Babylon in 538 B.C. Babylon was never conquered by anyone named Darius the Median (5:31). History records no one by that name. There was a Darius I Hystapes, a Persian king (522-486 B.C.) who divided his kingdom into satrapies (Dan 6:1). He however did not conquer Babylon, but ruled it after Cyrus had conquered it. Prince Belshazzar did die in battle against Cyrus (not Darius). King Nabonidos, his father, lived on for another three months. Daniel claims in 9:1 Darius is the son of Ahasuerus (Xerxes). Darius is actually his father. In Daniel 1:1 The claim is made that Nebuchadnezzar came to Jerusalem in the “third year of the reign of Jehoiakim” (606 B.C.). Nebuchadnezzar did not come to power until a year later, and then did not make it to Jerusalem until 597 B.C. when Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim’s son) was in power (2 King 24:10).
 
The seventy weeks mentioned in 9:24 are actually 70 years. The temple was destroyed in 586 B.C. and restored under Darius in 516 B.C. (cross reference Jer. 25:11-14). It was decided somewhere along the line that 9:24-25 must foretell the coming of Jesus Christ, so Bibles were altered with no regard to the warning in Rev. 22:16. The 70 week/year period which would have ended long before Jesus arrived was changed in the “Revised Standard Version” to read “seventy weeks of years.” The Catholics went one step further in their “Living Bible” to put it simply at 490 years until the “kingdom of everlasting righteousness begins.” It will be 483 years from the time the command to rebuild Jerusalem begins until the Anointed One (Jesus) comes. The Jews started rebuilding in 516 B.C. (with or without a command), making the coming of the Messiah 33 B.C. (Did we miss it!) Some sources claim the rebuilding started in 538 B.C., making Jesus even less likely to be the Messiah.
 
A sensible explanation to Dan. 9:24-26 does exist. The first period of 490 years, verse 24, is the entire time starting from the sack of Jerusalem 597 B.C. until the coming of the Magic Kingdom. The seven weeks refer to the Babylonian exile period of 7 × 7 or 49 years (587-538 B.C.) The anointed one is Zerubbabel, a Davidic king who restores the temple under Darius (see the book of Haggai). The 62 weeks, verse 26, or 434 years represents a lesser time of the Persian and Hellenistic periods until Antiochus the desolator of verse 26 destroys the sanctuary and cuts off the last anointed one by replacing Onias III, the legitimate High Priest, with his own brother Jason (175 B.C.). Verse 27 concludes with the Temple cleansing in 164 B.C.

Pantera

<a href="http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/comment/daniel.shtml" target="_blank">Revealing Daniel</a>