LianaLi

I used to be able to quote passages from memory that offended me with their horrible misconceptions of non-believers. Now, they fade from my memory, but I know they’re in That Book somewhere. I actually paid attention to bible study today, and this passage from <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/rom/6" target="_blank">Romans 6</a> caught my attention.

To me, that summarizes the entire chapter. The whole chapter is about being slaves to sin and being slaves to righteousness. If you aren’t a believer, then you are a slave to sin. By being a slave to sin, Paul insinuates that a non-believer is unable to do anything good without belief, without Christ. It’s just a small hop and a jump to assume that those without Christ, as they are unable to overcome sin, have no “good” moral values because of this inherent, implied inability to overcome sin.

Does anyone else remember specific passages, where there were clear insinuations that a person cannot do anything good without Christ, or, conversely, that those without Christ cannot do good things?

That belief really frightened me as a christian, that I could NOT be "good" without belief, that I could not have acceptable moral values or make moral judgements without some guy on a cross sanctioning them. Indoctrination is a powerful thing.


-Liana

Edited to fix URL

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: LianaLi ]</p>

Amos

Well you're wrong Liana and the verse you cited simply means that for as long as we are not censored by natural law we are subject to the slavery of sin and we were actually praised for our slavery to sin in verse 19, "Just as formely you enslaved your bodies to impurities and licentiousness for their degradation , make them now the servant of justice for their sanctification."

So why condemn yourself if sin is encouraged until such time as you are set free from the law? I actually think that you need a mentor because much fruit must be born out of sin before we can be set free from the law. Go to Romans 7:5 and read that "When we are in the flesh, the sinfull passion roused by the law worked in our members and we bore fruit for death. Now we have been released from the law . . . we serve the new spirit and not the antiquated letter," (bold is mine).

It takes much courage to punish the body unto unconscious surrender (called death here). Here's a line from Karamazov to this effect just prior to the Grand Inquisition "my whole life I punish myself, my whole life I punish."

The new spirit is natural law as in "a broken reed he shall not crush" but will "upset the temple without leaving one stone unturned" = freedom from religion.

Vorkosigan

Yes, the scary part of that passage is not the word "without" but the word "control." Paul neatly illustrates what Christianity is about.

Michael

Amos

The word "control" implies censorship by natural law after we have been set free from religious law. This censorchip becomes real through our intimacy with nature, . . . which is, or can be, real as every naturalist should know.

Paradisedreams2

Amos,
I was going to reply to LianaLi but I couldn't have said it better.

I seem to think of Christ (Truth) being born of the Woman under the law to redeem those from under it. If your not "under the law" you don't need to be redeemed from it.

But definately just the same what Paul says about it being a tutor (if you struggle under it) there does seem to be a time in one's experience to know that freedom in Christ.

What baffles me the most is why some struggle under it for 30 years and others half that long.

Some walk away from what they think is "The faith" but in close examination its usually "The Law" (which is a good thing). Though they don't see it that way at first (in fact theres a fear in it in the begining, following a sigh of relief).

I don't know but I find this true alot. Once they struggle under the Law (to be righteous) and find only failure (which is a GOOD PLACE to be) they give up (Which they should, another excellent place to be) But theres a huge fear at first (beyond description as was mine) especially in those who travailed under the law for what seemed like forever (bearing fruit in them for death). God looks as though He does not exist because they bought into the "lie" that produces anything good in anyone (which is the point in the garden their intent was good).Then comes the anger and the hatred toward anything that comes wrapped in the God "package".

Now they find they have "life", funny part is, is thats the TRUTH of the Law and its dynamic evident in themselves. It doesn't work.


Gee, I was told to check out your posts, Diane's right I really like the way you think Mind if I follow you around a bit?

Amos

You're welcome.

LianaLi

Wow, no offense, but you guys espouse the singular view that worries me so much.

and

The honest belief that people are incapable of doing good, of making good judgement calls WITHOUT Christ or belief worries me. It was that fear that kept me in the Church for a while, that I could not be a moral human being, able to make good judgement calls, able to abide by the rules, without some god-figure sanctioning my every action. I've gotten past that, obviously, and there's still no god-figure holding my hand.

Aside from that- you do realize the misconception I'm trying to attack, which is the belief that people are incapable of doing good without god. There's ample evidence to the contrary, of people able to act in a socially acceptable manner, without the aid of religion.

-Liana

Paradisedreams2

The honest belief that people are incapable of doing good, of making good judgement calls WITHOUT Christ or belief worries me. It was that fear that kept me in the Church for a while, that I could not be a moral human being, able to make good judgement calls, able to abide by the rules, without some god-figure sanctioning my every action. I've gotten past that, obviously, and there's still no god-figure holding my hand.

Liana,

living under and beliving in "The law" keeps you from seeing the Truth which is ALREADY IN YOU.

To me you don't HAVE TO believe In Christ as others teach. A Name for Christ is "Truth" and if you walk in the truth found in your heart your not tortured by "The law" because the law only symbolizes "unbelief".

So your free now, no hoops, no laws, no religion, no belief. Your in Truth if you don't walk by Law in regards to pleasing God.

Your misunderstanding me.

Paradisedreams2

They spend 40 years plus and die nonetheless while it should take 42 months. Read Rev.13 where the first beast comes out of the water (celestial sea) with the mortal wounds (stigmata) while the second beast is born of the earth (carnal desire from Jn.1:13) and forever will worship the first beast. All those that worship Jesus are like the second beast and will just die with the unresolved paradox sinful yet saved.

Amos,

Your conclusion is as mine! YES!!!! Let me ask you something... Did you come to this on your own (as did I) or did you get thatin mass market Christianity? I'm supposing the former

Paradisedreams2

Liliana,

See through the religious jargon. i'm trying to be clear speaking words in scripture but sometimes the point is missed because of the words.

What I believe is that Truth is in EVERYONE, and YES we are more then capaple of doing good without "the Law" imposed on us by religious institutions who don't understand the Law or its purpose. The law makes nothing perfect. So if you don't believe that you need a "Law" to do good from your heart, YOU see Truth and live it. You are on the correct path, thats what I'm saying in short. Law in scriptures is NOT true belief, in fact one is severed from the power of God under it.

A wise choice is not to bite into that "Lie" which in fact you haven't, thats what I'm saying. Your fine just as you are and according to my understanding your in the path of life, despite what other christians would have you believe.

Does that make better sense?