Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Egoinos · 04-22-2002, 05:15 PM

Many Christians have a very closed attitude to sex - extra-marital sex is wrong, pre-marital sex is wrong, homosexual sex is wrong, bisexuality is wrong....etc
I was just thinking, if we look at the word agape, which is used throughout the NT, and much beloved of Christians to explain God's "unconditional love", then we find that it often means sexual love. For example, Liddell & Scott define agape as the "love of man and wife"*, and James Hastings said:

Quote:

In the story of Samson and Delilah agapao describes sexual relationship (Jg 16:4,15), not to mention Solomon's legalised lust (3 K 11:2)"

"The noun agape is usually connected with sex, or at least with love of women."+

This being so - can Christians really say that "love" in the Biblical sense, means unconditional, strictly non-sexual love? Or does it mean - can it mean - that Christians ought to show sexual love for one another? Would this mean that Christians ought to embrace the concept of free love? Should fornication no longer be considered a sin? Or is it something deeper, along the lines of Julian of Norwich's conception of Jesus as a divine Lover, as expressed in her Revelation of Divine Love:

Quote:

(Jesus speaking) "My derlyng I am glad thou art comen to me. In al thi wo I have ever be with the and now seist thou my lovyng and we be onyd in bliss."

Source: <a href="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=20855751" target="_blank">Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse</a>

Comments would be appreciated.
My notes on the meaning of agape are <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/darkside/agapetheos/definitions.html" target="_blank">here</a>

--Egoinos--

* "A Greek-English Lexicon" Henry G Liddell & Robert Scott. A new Edition. Revised by Henry Stuart Jones. Vol 1 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940) p6
+ "Dictionary of the Bible" James Hastings, 2nd Ed, Revised by F.C. Grant & H H Rowley (T & T Clark, 1963) pp593-4

[Edited for spelling]

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Egoinos ]

Kosh · 04-22-2002, 06:51 PM

I've never been able to convince myself just
why Yhwh would even care about our sex lives.
I'd really like to hear an explanation of why
he should be concerned.

The reality of course,is that there are health
reasons for these "rules", and that Yhwh was
just used as the big policeman in the sky to
motivate people to avoid STD (sexually transmitted
diseases)and the associated problems with
children born out of wedlock....

lpetrich · 04-22-2002, 08:04 PM

There was no concept of sexually transmitted diseases in those days. Also, there is no defense of the safest form of sex: masturbation.

04-22-2002, 08:46 PM

Agape is just opposite to eros.

Agape subjective, is not jealous, not protective, not selfish and cannot be aroused but is a gift of God.

Eros is just the opposite to this.

Toto · 04-22-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
There was no concept of sexually transmitted diseases in those days.

I think that there were no sexually transmitted diseases in those days in Israel. Sexually transmitted diseases (syphilis in particular) were introduced into Europe from the Americas. Concern with virginity was based on making sure the children were actually the husband's, if there were in fact a rational reason for it.

Paul's concern with celibacy was that sex was a diversion from spiritual practice. And of course Jesus was going to return within a generation, so there was no need to make babies.

Boro Nut · 04-23-2002, 03:27 AM

Yes, the bible is a bit funny when it comes to sexual matters. You never know what they mean when they say they 'know' someone.

I was especially surprised to find out the the 'Groves' the early jews delighted in tearing down were actually large penises. Does anyone know if these are only availabe in the Middle East? I would love a tree like that.

Boro Nut

Kosh · 04-23-2002, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:


I think that there were no sexually transmitted diseases in those days in Israel. Sexually transmitted diseases (syphilis in particular) were introduced into Europe from the Americas.

None at all? Are you sure of this? Damn, I
knew I was born in the wrong age...

(of course,there were probably far worse things
that could happen to you for messing 'round
back then!).

Agree with Toto on the last part, I forgot to
mention the whole "property of the husband" thing
as a motivation for these rules.

Egoinos · 04-23-2002, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
Agape is just opposite to eros.

Agape subjective, is not jealous, not protective, not selfish and cannot be aroused but is a gift of God.

Eros is just the opposite to this.

In the Septuagint, the Jewish writers used the word agape (hitherto almost unknown) instead of eros - very possibly because eros was the name of a pagan god.
What is interesting is that, despite its history of having been used to signify sexual love and lust in the LXX, the NT authors chose to use agape and its related words to describe the love of God.

--Egoinos--

Kosh · 04-23-2002, 05:38 PM

Bump.

Are there no theists here that can tell us by
God would care that much about sex?

Haran · 04-23-2002, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Egoinos:
In the Septuagint, the Jewish writers used the word agape (hitherto almost unknown) instead of eros - very possibly because eros was the name of a pagan god.
What is interesting is that, despite its history of having been used to signify sexual love and lust in the LXX, the NT authors chose to use agape and its related words to describe the love of God.

Egoinos, the various forms of agape were used much more in the LXX for "intimate love" (relationship kind) and not "sexual love" from what I see. You are only noting isolated examples. If you know the forms of the word, then do a search in Bibleworks (or some such Bible software) and you'll see that it is used mostly in instances that are not sexual.

Haran

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04-22-2002, 06:51 PM	#2
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	I've never been able to convince myself just why Yhwh would even care about our sex lives. I'd really like to hear an explanation of why he should be concerned. The reality of course,is that there are health reasons for these "rules", and that Yhwh was just used as the big policeman in the sky to motivate people to avoid STD (sexually transmitted diseases)and the associated problems with children born out of wedlock....

04-22-2002, 08:04 PM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	There was no concept of sexually transmitted diseases in those days. Also, there is no defense of the safest form of sex: masturbation.

04-22-2002, 08:46 PM	#4
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Agape is just opposite to eros. Agape subjective, is not jealous, not protective, not selfish and cannot be aroused but is a gift of God. Eros is just the opposite to this.

04-23-2002, 03:27 AM	#6
Boro Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Middlesbrough, England Posts: 3,909	Yes, the bible is a bit funny when it comes to sexual matters. You never know what they mean when they say they 'know' someone. I was especially surprised to find out the the 'Groves' the early jews delighted in tearing down were actually large penises. Does anyone know if these are only availabe in the Middle East? I would love a tree like that. Boro Nut

04-23-2002, 05:38 PM	#9
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Bump. Are there no theists here that can tell us by God would care that much about sex?

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