A3

This is what we Swedenborgians believe. See what you think.
This is the most important concept in Christianity, as pomised but sorry about the length. A sermon by Rev. Doug Taylor.
A3
This is an ageless question. It has a profound effect upon our life now and to eternity. Simon Peter said. "Thou art the Christ [or the Messiah], the Son of the Living God" (v. 16). This teaches that Jesus is in some sense Divine. But is that enough "Jesus is in some sense Divine"? The most important idea for us to grasp clearly is the idea of God, because this governs and controls all our wishing and thinking, whether we realize it or not. Even the atheist’s idea of God as a nonentity enters into all his thoughts and influences his feelings and his life much more than he realizes. We should love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. But who is the Lord? We are supposed to shun evils for the sole reason that they are sins against the Lord. But, again, who is the Lord? Is it Jehovah of the Old Testament? Or Jesus of the New Testament? Or are they the same Divine Person? In order to live the life of religion, we need a clear idea of God.
Since 325 A.D. the Christian idea of God has been that there are three Persons in God, each of whom is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one. It is admitted on all sides that this is incomprehensible - a Divine mystery, and must remain so in this life. We will never understand everything about God, after all He is Infinite and we are finite. But we can understand the Trinity from the literal statements of the Old and New Testaments - if we follow two common-sense rules.
(1) gather all the passages on a subject, or a representative sampling of them.
(2) use only explicit statements that can have only one meaning, as your basis and starting point. Group 1 seems to teach that God the Father (or Jehovah of the Old Testament) is one Person and Jesus, the Son of God, is another Person. Group 2 teaches that Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus of the New are the same Person. These groups have to be reconciled for the true doctrine to show.
Samples of group 1: Jesus said: “I am come from God” (John 8:42): “The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do” (John 5: 19). As we have already seen, Simon Peter said: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" ( Matt. 16: 16). At the Lord’s baptism a voice from heaven was heard to say: "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3: 17). He also said: "My Father is greater than I” (John 14: 28) and "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). On the cross Jesus said: "Father, forgive them...” (Luke 23:34), and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27: 46). Also, after the resurrection, the Lord said to the disciples, "Teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28: 19). In the last passage there is yet a third Divine Person, the Holy Spirit.
We might come to the conclusion that there are three Persons in God. This was never said but was assumed from 325 A.D. onwards and has been unthinkingly accepted as the orthodox Christian faith itself. You will never find a passage that says that he who has seen the Son has yet to see the Father.
Moreover, wat has been taken for granted in these passages is that the terms "Father" and "Son" always refer to people. Don’t we sometimes say, "The wish is father to the thought"? Or: "When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8: 44).
For example, the prophecy of the Advent of the Lord: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace"? (Isa. 9:6) Here no one can for a moment doubt that He who is called "the Child" and "the Son" is also at the same time called "God the Mighty" and "the Father" - "the Father of Eternity."
There is only one Mighty God. "Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord [Jehovah]; and besides Me there is no Saviour" (Isa. 43:10, 11). "I am the First and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God" (Isa. 44:6; compare Rev. 1:8). I am Jehovah; that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another” (Isa. 42:8. 48: 11). "Am not I Jehovah, and there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Saviour, there is none besides Me. Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else" (Isa. 45:21,22).
This defines another prophecy in Isaiah: "The Lord [Jehovah] Himself shall give you a sign; behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel" (7: 14). The name Immanuel can only be translated as "God-with-us," so it was the Lord God, Jehovah, the only God, who was to come into the world as the Saviour, and appear as the Son of a virgin. This, in fact, is the burden of all the Old Testament passages that treat of the Advent of the Messiah. "And it shall be said in that day. This is our God; we have waited for Him that He may deliver us; this is Jehovah. . . we will rejoice and be glad in His salvation" (Isa. 25:9). "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, make plain in the solitude a highway for our God.... Behold. the Lord God shall come in strength" (Isa. 40: 3, 10; compare Matt. 3, et al). The Lord the Creator would also come as the Redeemer.
Again, in the Old Testament the Lord Jehovah says that He is the First and the Last, but in the New Testament, in the Book of Revelation, Jesus says He is the First and the Last. We cannot have TWO being the first and the last. Obviously, it must be the same Person. We recall also that the Lord of the Old Testament says He is the only Saviour, and that His glory He would not give to another. Yet in the New Testament JESUS is frequently called the Saviour. Does it not follow that Jesus must be Jehovah in the Human form, a thought that is reinforced by the knowledge that Jesus means "Jehovah saves"?
In full agreement with this, in the New Testament we find the Lord Jesus Christ saying to the multitude: "I and the Father are ONE" not two, but one. His audience understood, they wanted to stone Him; "Because that thou being a man, maketh thyself God" (John 10:33). Interesting, the Jewish Church which rejected Him understood what He was saying.
Also, in John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.... He was in the world, and the world was made by Him; and the world knew Him not.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,3, 10, 14). Here it is plainly stated that it was the Creator of the world who came on earth in the form of a man.
Again, the Lord said: "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). "I AM" can have but one meaning; it is Jehovah’s name (Exodus 3:14), and it means Being - the only Divine Being or Life Itself. The Jews again understood the Lord saying, "I am Jehovah," and thus wished to stone Him for blasphemy. It is manifest; Jehovah (or the Father) and Jesus (the Son of God) are actually the same Divine Person.
But in John it all come together; Jesus says His is going to His Father, and is misunderstood by both Thomas and Philip, who think that He is referring to some other Person. Philip: "Lord shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). The Lord: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (Verse 9). Could anything be more plain? What other Father can there be but the One whom Philip’s eyes were beholding?
Then the Lord went on to explain: "The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself; but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works" (verse 10). Now, how are we to understand that? What is it that dwelleth within, causes words to he spoken, and also "doeth the works?” What else answers this description but the soul? It dwelleth within, it causes words to be spoken, it "doeth the works." What else but the Divine Soul? Is not the soul as a father to the body? Is not the body a kind of offspring from the soul?
When we see that the "Father" means the Divine in Itself or the Divine Soul, and that the "Son of God" means the Divine Body visible to man, then we can understand what the Holy Spirit is. In every person there is a trinity - not of persons - but a trinity of essentials, a trinity of soul, body, and that intangible influence that flows forth from the union of soul and body. This spirit or proceeding influence is approximately what is called in popular language, a man’s personality. It is the sphere that emanates from the combination of his soul and body, and this is what has an effect on other people. Man has this trinity of soul, body and spirit because he is made in the image of God, and in God there is a Divine Trinity - the Divine Soul, called the Father; the Divine Body, called the Son; and the Divine Spirit, called the Holy Spirit.
This throws light on the whole Word, both the Old Testament and the New. Like this:
"I am come from God" (John 8:42); the Body came forth from the Soul. "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do" (John 5: 19); the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16); the Messiah, the Body of the Divine Itself, which alone is Life-in-itself. "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17); the Divine Body in which it pleased the Lord to dwell while on earth. "My Father is greater than I" (.John 14:28); the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it. "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6); just as we cannot know a man’s soul except insofar as his body reveals it, so also the only way we can have any idea of the Divine Soul is by means of the Divine Body, which was visible to man. Or, as it is said in another place, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only Begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John l: 18). "My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Matt. 27:46). On the cross, the last of the Lord’s lifelong temptations, He was painfully aware of the Body to the exclusion of the Soul, as we also are during temptations. The Divine Soul seems to have forsaken it. "Father forgive them..." (Luke 23:34); forgiveness comes from the influence of the Soul, not the Body. We, also, have to be raised above the sphere of the body before we can forgive.
The idea of the Lord that the Apostles had is now restored, and filed with details. It is not new; it was there all the time, as Paul said: "In Jesus Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9). That is why at the end, Jesus could truly say to the disciples, “All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth" (Matt. 28: 18), whoever has all power is surely the Almighty. So even doubting Thomas finally worshiped the Lord, saying: "My Lord and My God" (John 20:28). As the Lord promised: "I have yet many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now - but the time is coming when I shall no more speak unto you in parables, but I shall show you plainly of the Father" (John 16:12. 25).
Reactions would be appreciated.
A3

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

Kent Stevens

I think the simplest way of interpreting Christainity is to say it is a polytheistic relgion kidding itself that it is monotheistic.

There are at least three gods in the Christain religion that is God the father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. If you are Catholic you tend to treat Mary as a god. The way that saints are treated where you have churches named the Church of Saint Peter means that saints are close to demigods. Therefore there are multiple gods in Christainity which classifies it as a polytheism.

However, Christains may think that Christ and the Father are one. Put in the idea that the Holy Spirit is divine and you derive the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. If this is the case Christainity is a monotheistic religion with their only being one god.

But the idea that god is both three persons and one person is ridiculous. In mathematical form this is equivalent to saying 1 = 3 which we know is false. If we say that the Father is the Soul and Christ is the Body we are abusing language. For in the Bible it suggests that Christ and Father are distinct personalities and minds that can say things independently of each other. If Christ and Father are the same why did Jesus pray to Father, when this would be like praying to yourself? If Christ is the same as Father why did Christ say my god why did you foresake me, when this would be equivalent to saying why did I foresake myself?

As the doctrine of the holy spirit is false it seems easier to think that Christainity has multiple Gods which is means it becomes classified as a polytheism. But Christainity thinks it has only one god which is monotheism. Therefore, Christainity is a polytheism kidding itself that it is a monotheism.

Ron Singh

Don't kid yourself.

Answerer

Well A3, in some ways you are right as trinity doctrine was only created in the Roman empire during 400 hundred years after Jesus is dead. So, it is more of a control system than an actual fact

A3

Hi Kent,

That is absolutely right. You have an questioning mind and there is nothing wrong with that. After all, we did not get our intelligence just to be smart shoppers or fly to the moon. Most churches invite you to come in but please leave your intelligence at the door. It happened 2000 years ago and right from the start this has been the most contentious issue. The disciples had great difficulty with it until the very end, and even then you wonder if they really did get it. It seems that doubting Thomas had his moment when he said: “My Lord and my God.” But in May of 325 A.D. there was the Nicaean Council assembled by Emperor Constantine. The reason was to stop the arguments for once and for all about the Arian Controversy, not to reach the truth but arrive at a political resolution. Constantine wanted to go on conquering territory but the infighting made it impossible. The subject was what we are looking at now. The Christian churches have through the ages copied this resolution and for some strange reason never questioned it again. They never had anybody to answer to. Mind you, it is (relatively speaking) not that long ago that someone was condemned to death for translating the Bible. Now the problems arise because churches are emptying in an alarming rate. Nobody in his or her right mind believes this stuff any more. A science that is full of misteries and assumptions that do not make sense is thrown by the wayside. A religion should be (and is) treated the same way. People just leave.

Because it does not only make no sense, Who do you pray to? Who is running which department?
You will never think of yourself as three, or even two, persons. If you did, you could meet up with some people in white coats. But you do have a soul (which is the real you) and of course a body. By contributing to the world around you, you also have an influence. These are three sides or aspects of you (not persons).
Think of the world as a fish tank. 2000 years ago God decided that the fishes had made it so filthy and caused so much crud that something had to be done. He stuck His arm in the tank to clean things up and rearrange stuff so the fishes, once more, had the freedom to roam around.
Apparently some fishes did not see the connection between the arm and God. But we see now that the arm was God.
This crude example does not do justice to the infinite wisdom and details involved with this birth and life. (There are a lot more misconceptions) However, now we have something to study and ask questions about. Nothing like: “sit down, shut up and just believe.”
Kent, have you ever been tempted? Do you remember what that was like, what you thought? You probalby had a dialog with something inside of you. Shall I, shall I not?? When you do some analyzing you will find that you have been talking with your conscience and while this is going on you seem deserted by every support you thought you had (ever read the poem “Footprints”?) We become better people (that’s why we are here) when our arguments are won by our conscience. BTW we cannot go to heaven without one. Jesus was throughout his life arguing with his conscience or God. We will never be perfect, that’s why we will never reach the point where we can tell our soul: “it has been accomplished.” Jesus, howver, did say that after His last and most severe temptation (to come of the cross and save himself).
Hi Answerer, it may have been called the trinity long after the crucifixion but the problem seems to have been there all along. I don't understand this control you are talking about. Whos is controling who?

Adrian

Koyaanisqatsi

It's a nice try, but it won't wash. The trinity nonsense was created in order to reconcile the irreconcilable due to the exceedingly poor logical structure of christian cult theology.

Instead of recognizing the flaws and admitting the fraud, the cult concocted the trinity, relying as they were throughout on the indoctrinated, intellectual docility of their cult members. Cognitive dissonance shuts the mind down and, as Hitler is alleged to have stated, "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."

Hence, "Father, Son, Holy Ghost," instead of, "Obvious Fraud."

Mageth

Perhaps we're leaving Satan out of the xian stable of gods. They won't admit it, but they exalt him to a godlike status (he seems to be omnipresent and damn near omniscient, and his omnipotence only seems to be limited by god).

A3

Hi Mageth,

You are quite right, just about every newspaper page or newscast is about them. We actually don't give them any kind of status and would really like to do away with him/them, but that would mean the end of freedom on this planet.
We need the devils, in a way, just like we need weights or resistance to make our muscles strong, so we need to fight evil to make us better.
Devils and satans have so many slaves and followers in this world it is impossible to just boot them out by ourselves.
Dit you know that devils were people once? That goes for angels as well. Depending on our life here we will end up on one of the two sides.
Regards
Adrian

Tercel

Just a little quibble,

It's "three persons in one essense". Not one "person" - that would certainly be ridiculous.

Kent Stevens

You might have conflicting impulses to do this or that but that does not mean that you are two, three, or four people. As an example of conflicting impulses you might want to go to the beach, go home, play on the internet, or read a book. But only one of these impulses are realised at a time. This is not evidence for a four sided personality.

What gets confusing about Jesus is that some of the time he seems to be saying that he is God. If Jesus is just an alias for God then the overall God would have one personality. But the doctrine of the holy trinity goes against this idea of Jesus of just being an alias for God.

Even if the trinity consists of one essence this does not mean anything much. It is like saying me and a few relatives can be considered one. Even though we have different personalties and attributes we are still one. It is just easier to say that we are three separate people. Essence is not usually meant as a replacement for the term family or a group of people. Essence means that a group of divine figures are actually one.