Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amen-Moses · 07-17-2003, 05:00 PM

Which laws?

Laws here in the UK are specified to specific age groups so until you reach that age group they don't apply.

Amen-Moses

tribalbeeyatch · 07-17-2003, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
when does a human being have access to the protection of the laws of our land?

how would you word it? perhaps the question for some folks is "do you have the courage of your convictions?"

A small but important change might be to include the word 'should'. As in, "At what stage should a human being be entitled to protection under the law?" As it stands, you could just as well be polling to ascertain the current state of abortion law in your respondents' respective localities. As far as "the courage of your convictions" go, that would rather depend on what one's convictions are -- something that your poll doesn't seem particularly well suited to determine in the first place.

Roland98 · 07-17-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
Does that mean a person with brain which functions at a level below some particular standard isn't human? If so, what about people in comas? Are they not human?

What a poor argument. Do they revert to being a mass of cells? Clearly not. You can't revoke "humanness" once it's bestowed.

Quote:

No one knows when the soul enters the body. It could easily be at conception.

Or it could be never, as a "soul" may not exist. But quickening was used as a standard for centuries--I don't think it's a bad reference point in the present-day.

PopeInTheWoods · 07-17-2003, 08:29 PM

I voted "after birth", but the choices aren't terribly clear-cut. After conception, the being in question has legal protection from harm, via its mother, from all other people except its mother. But, since its existence is a direct threat to the life and health of its mother, its life isn't (mostly) unconditionally protected until after it's born.

Andy

yguy · 07-17-2003, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roland98
What a poor argument. Do they revert to being a mass of cells? Clearly not. You can't revoke "humanness" once it's bestowed.

Bestowed by whom? The parents? Society? If they can bestow it, why can't they revoke it?

Quote:

Or it could be never, as a "soul" may not exist. But quickening was used as a standard for centuries--I don't think it's a bad reference point in the present-day.

We have no idea whether it's bad or not, do we?

brighid · 07-18-2003, 05:16 AM

Quote:

So at 11 weeks it's a clump of cells that deserves no protection, and at 13 weeks it deserves protection? Why?

Well I don't actually believe that at 13 weeks it deserves any protection. I simply stated that most people don't have any problem with 1st trimester abortions.

B

brighid · 07-18-2003, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Well, to be fair, the fetus should at least get some consideration. It it, if nothing else, a potential human being. And will naturally develop into one if nothing interupts the its develop. Colon cancer is just, well, cancerous.

I am not sure if you assume that a fetus isn't given some consideration when a woman chooses to abort. It simply isn't given importance OVER the woman.

No colon cancer is a living, human entity as it is comprised of human cells (although it is not a human being) and both a pregnancy and cancer have the potential of harming, disabling and or killing a woman if not removed. In the case of pregnancy either through abortion, miscarriage or delivery. (simply look to the high maternal and infant mortality rates of African countries for a comparison on how dangerous pregnancy can be.)

IF nothing natural or otherwise interrupts the development a fetus will very likely develop into a fully functional human being.

Brighid

brighid · 07-18-2003, 05:25 AM

Quote:

That would be miscarriage, and it is non-intentional. If I die of old age I am not naturally murdered.

I agree, but miscarriage and spontaneous abortion are NO different. For whatever reason the womans body naturally terminated the fetus, generally due to defect. For those that believe in God then God chose to abort/terminate the baby.

Brighid

brighid · 07-18-2003, 05:31 AM

Quote:

when does a human being have access to the protection of the laws of our land?

Well a clump of cells with the potential to become a human being (but no guarantee) doesn't deserve any more protection under the law then my skin cells do.

The protections a human fetus deserves are not clear cut and should be decided on an individual basis that adhere to general guidelines. This decision should be made by a qualified medical professional. The law recognizes that an fertilized ovum evolves and deserves greater protection as it becomes more viable and conscious. I agree with the scientific evidence of the evolution of the human fetus from multi-celled human organism to human being over the course of a typical pregnancy.

B

abe smith · 07-18-2003, 05:59 AM

unless you're sailing under false colors, I'd like to offer that the issue of pregnancy & abortion is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS once your wad has left the end of your dick.
IF YOU DON"t like abortion , tell males to keep their gizzm out of cunts. And if that doesn't work/ if you can't make guys agree to do that, then get the hell out of the way and let women deal w/ the results of your gender's carelessness and reckless disregard.
As always, I repeat, "She that pays the Piper calls the tune." If you don't LIKE THAT, find a solution that WORKS, to prevent unwanted pregnancies; or shut-up & get out of the way.
If males as a group are not going to give a *** about the results of their own actions, then males as a group have no part in dealing-with the undesired effects of those. Abe

View Poll Results: when does a human being have access to the protection of the laws of our land?
after conception	9	12.86%
3 months after conception	7	10.00%
6 months after conception	15	21.43%
9 months after conception	3	4.29%
after birth	33	47.14%
18 years after birth	3	4.29%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

07-18-2003, 05:59 AM	#100
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Quite Frankly, Fr Phil unless you're sailing under false colors, I'd like to offer that the issue of pregnancy & abortion is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS once your wad has left the end of your dick. IF YOU DON"t like abortion , tell males to keep their gizzm out of cunts. And if that doesn't work/ if you can't make guys agree to do that, then get the hell out of the way and let women deal w/ the results of your gender's carelessness and reckless disregard. As always, I repeat, "She that pays the Piper calls the tune." If you don't LIKE THAT, find a solution that WORKS, to prevent unwanted pregnancies; or shut-up & get out of the way. If males as a group are not going to give a *** about the results of their own actions, then males as a group have no part in dealing-with the undesired effects of those. Abe

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07-17-2003, 05:00 PM	#91
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Which laws? Laws here in the UK are specified to specific age groups so until you reach that age group they don't apply. Amen-Moses

07-17-2003, 08:29 PM	#94
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	I voted "after birth", but the choices aren't terribly clear-cut. After conception, the being in question has legal protection from harm, via its mother, from all other people except its mother. But, since its existence is a direct threat to the life and health of its mother, its life isn't (mostly) unconditionally protected until after it's born. Andy

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