Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 06-13-2002, 02:53 AM

I know the theoretical problems with homeopathy, and I have often gone with the usual sceptic line about there being no evidence for its efficacy beyond placebo either. However, I�ve recently been called on the latter -- I�d said that there�s no point spending further money on researching that which is already disproven.

Looking through my books, they seem to say it doesn't work, not by reference to studies, but to the theoretical problems. Could anyone please give me references to proper medical / peer-reviewed science journals (pref online / generally available) reviewing the (as I have said) countless studies showing this?

Come to that, what is the current state of play? Is there no evidence? A search of PubMed looks like there is something in it, eg <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=118967 46&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">this article</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=117909 98&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">this one</a> and the tenor of <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=118967 46&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">this one</a>. Am I wrong?

Cheers, Oolon

Dr Rick · 06-13-2002, 10:37 AM

The first and second links are to the abstract of a small study which had a drop-out rate that was over 40% of the completion rate, potentially skewing the results if the final analysis did not include the entire "intention to treat" group (the abstract doesn't say one way or the other).

The second link is to the abstract of a narrative review which says in part "Positive evidence was found in relation to glucosamine, chondroitin, some herbal remedies, and acupuncture" but nothing affirmative about homeopathy.

Rick

Mad Kally · 06-13-2002, 01:42 PM

<a href="http://www.skeptic.com/03.1.jarvis-homeo.html" target="_blank"> HOMEOPATHY: A POSITION STATEMENT BY THE NATIONAL COUNCIL AGAINST HEALTH FRAUD </a>

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 01:53 PM

Doesn't "homeopathy" imply several different herbs and procedures? You would have to evaluate each one individually, I think. Also, the homeopathic literature always talks about diluting out the herb (or whatever) out like a million-fold. I doubt that even if the herb works at "full strength" that it would still work at that low of a dilution.

scigirl

Vorkosigan · 06-13-2002, 01:55 PM

Try <a href="http://www.quackwatch.com." target="_blank">www.quackwatch.com.</a> They have a huge list of review articles on all quack therapies, including that one. Also try <a href="http://www.homeowatch.org/" target="_blank">http://www.homeowatch.org/</a>

Vorkosigan

Mad Kally · 06-13-2002, 02:01 PM

Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843)

Law of Infinitesimal "Potentizing"

Hahnemann's Law of Infinitesimals holds that the smaller the dose of a medication, the more powerful will be its healing effects. He taught that substances could be potentized (i.e., their "immaterial and spiritual powers" released to make active substances more active, and inactive substances active). The process of potentizing involved the sequential dilution of remedial agents by succussion in which initial mixtures would be shaken at least 40 times, nine parts dumped, and nine parts of solvent added and shaken again. This process was repeated as many times as desired. Tapping on a leather pad or the heel of the hand was alleged to double the dilution-a notion that contradicts the laws of physics. Remedies are diluted to powers of ten and labeled with combinations of Arabic and Roman numerals (e.g., 3X= 1/1000, 4X= 1/10,000, 3C or 6X= 1/1,000,000, etc.). The fact that 19th-Century homeopathic remedies were dilute placebos made them preferable to the harsh concoctions being applied by the humoral practitioners.

According to the laws of chemistry, there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, called Avogadro's number (6.023 x 10-23) corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 10^24). At this dilution there is less than a 50% chance that even one molecule of active material remains. Hahnemann himself realized that there was virtually no chance that any of the original substance remained at such high dilution, but explained it away in metaphysical terms. In addition to being contradicted by common sense, homeopathy's Law of Infinitesimals is invalidated by pharmaceutical dose-response studies.

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally:
Hahnemann's Law of Infinitesimals holds that the smaller the dose of a medication, the more powerful will be its healing effects.
[...]
In addition to being contradicted by common sense, homeopathy's Law of Infinitesimals is invalidated by pharmaceutical dose-response studies.

Wow I didn't realize how full of crap homeopathy is!

My brother's girlfriend's mom is a homeopathic doctor. When she gets sick, it sucks, because she refuses to go to a doctor and her mom won't give her any drugs. She's not even vaccinated against anything!

Grrr, we need to teach people how to think!

scigirl

Veil of Fire · 06-13-2002, 02:18 PM

Did a quick perusal on all of those links, but I couldn't find any actual studies... just 'it's theoretically not possible'.

Mad Kally · 06-13-2002, 02:28 PM

Scientific medicine encompasses a collection of procedures, each of which must stand on its own as safe and effective for a specific purpose.

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Veil of Fire:
<strong>Did a quick perusal on all of those links, but I couldn't find any actual studies... just 'it's theoretically not possible'.</strong>

Those studies probably wouldn't pass an ethics committee.

Researcher: "Can we spend 100 million dollars to test this herb at a 1 to a million dilution to see if it cures disease X, when disease X has other drugs already on the market that work fairly well?"

Ethics committe: "Um, the laws of physics, plus common sense, tells us that a 1 to one million dilution of your herb is going to do nothing. So, no you can't."

I actually have read several clinical studies of alternative therapies, including St John's Wort and echanasia. A couple of positive reports, no outright negative reports, but overwhelmingly the research says, "they don't do much." And this is testing the drugs/herbs at full strengh.

scigirl

06-13-2002, 02:53 AM	#1
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Actual evidence against (or for) homeopathy? I know the theoretical problems with homeopathy, and I have often gone with the usual sceptic line about there being no evidence for its efficacy beyond placebo either. However, I�ve recently been called on the latter -- I�d said that there�s no point spending further money on researching that which is already disproven. Looking through my books, they seem to say it doesn't work, not by reference to studies, but to the theoretical problems. Could anyone please give me references to proper medical / peer-reviewed science journals (pref online / generally available) reviewing the (as I have said) countless studies showing this? Come to that, what is the current state of play? Is there no evidence? A search of PubMed looks like there is something in it, eg <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=118967 46&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">this article</a>, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=117909 98&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">this one</a> and the tenor of <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=118967 46&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">this one</a>. Am I wrong? Cheers, Oolon

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06-13-2002, 10:37 AM	#2
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	The first and second links are to the abstract of a small study which had a drop-out rate that was over 40% of the completion rate, potentially skewing the results if the final analysis did not include the entire "intention to treat" group (the abstract doesn't say one way or the other). The second link is to the abstract of a narrative review which says in part "Positive evidence was found in relation to glucosamine, chondroitin, some herbal remedies, and acupuncture" but nothing affirmative about homeopathy. Rick

06-13-2002, 01:42 PM	#3
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	<a href="http://www.skeptic.com/03.1.jarvis-homeo.html" target="_blank"> HOMEOPATHY: A POSITION STATEMENT BY THE NATIONAL COUNCIL AGAINST HEALTH FRAUD </a>

06-13-2002, 01:53 PM	#4
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Doesn't "homeopathy" imply several different herbs and procedures? You would have to evaluate each one individually, I think. Also, the homeopathic literature always talks about diluting out the herb (or whatever) out like a million-fold. I doubt that even if the herb works at "full strength" that it would still work at that low of a dilution. scigirl

06-13-2002, 01:55 PM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Try <a href="http://www.quackwatch.com." target="_blank">www.quackwatch.com.</a> They have a huge list of review articles on all quack therapies, including that one. Also try <a href="http://www.homeowatch.org/" target="_blank">http://www.homeowatch.org/</a> Vorkosigan

06-13-2002, 02:01 PM	#6
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843) Law of Infinitesimal "Potentizing" Hahnemann's Law of Infinitesimals holds that the smaller the dose of a medication, the more powerful will be its healing effects. He taught that substances could be potentized (i.e., their "immaterial and spiritual powers" released to make active substances more active, and inactive substances active). The process of potentizing involved the sequential dilution of remedial agents by succussion in which initial mixtures would be shaken at least 40 times, nine parts dumped, and nine parts of solvent added and shaken again. This process was repeated as many times as desired. Tapping on a leather pad or the heel of the hand was alleged to double the dilution-a notion that contradicts the laws of physics. Remedies are diluted to powers of ten and labeled with combinations of Arabic and Roman numerals (e.g., 3X= 1/1000, 4X= 1/10,000, 3C or 6X= 1/1,000,000, etc.). The fact that 19th-Century homeopathic remedies were dilute placebos made them preferable to the harsh concoctions being applied by the humoral practitioners. According to the laws of chemistry, there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, called Avogadro's number (6.023 x 10-23) corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 10^24). At this dilution there is less than a 50% chance that even one molecule of active material remains. Hahnemann himself realized that there was virtually no chance that any of the original substance remained at such high dilution, but explained it away in metaphysical terms. In addition to being contradicted by common sense, homeopathy's Law of Infinitesimals is invalidated by pharmaceutical dose-response studies.

06-13-2002, 02:18 PM	#8
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	Did a quick perusal on all of those links, but I couldn't find any actual studies... just 'it's theoretically not possible'.

06-13-2002, 02:28 PM	#9
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Scientific medicine encompasses a collection of procedures, each of which must stand on its own as safe and effective for a specific purpose.

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