Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K,
You have not. You have never once addressed or discussed the actual evidence. What do I mean by this? An example: You have not taken a specific item of evidence...say item 3:

-A definite, noticable sense of peace...whereas before there was none. Others (non Christian) have noticed this.

and explained why you think this does not support a belief in God.

You have not done this. Look through all of our posts. You have not talked about a single item out of the 7 I presented for you to evaluate.




Look...this is an honest question K. Forget the 7 items I listed. Forget for a second that I am a theist and your an atheist. Forget we are on a forum. We are just two joes talking. Can you just explain to me why you feel...

-A definite, noticable sense of peace...whereas before there was none. Others (non Christian) have noticed this.

...does not support my belief in God?



Is this incoherent? I know you think this. I know this for a fact. I want you to explain why you think this.





Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K,
No hindu, muslim or buddhist has offered me 'proof of their gods' K...I can't reject what hasn't been offered.

Again. I am making no claims about others proofs of their gods.




Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Family Man

Of course it doesn't. All it shows is that you've found a belief system that gives you a sense of peace; it doesn't support your contention that god exists.

For instance, I once had a Buddhist friend call me the most enlightened non-Buddhist he's ever met. Is that sense of enlightenment evidence that atheism is true. He also struck me as being a very contented person. Is that evidence that Buddhism is true? Do you doubt that other religions give other people a sense of peace?

This is precisely what K is talking about. You posit "evidence" that applies equally to other religions (or points-of-view) but refuse to recognize that in rejecting it as evidence for other religions, you must also reject it for your own.

Clifford put it this way:

Jobar

Hmm, I might say, SOMMS, that your sense of peace provides emotional support to you. And I think none of us begrudges you that peace.

But you can't use an emotion as an element of a proof of existence. We don't disbelieve that you feel what you say you do; we contend that the cause to which you ascribe your feeling is internal, and not external to you, as you claim. You can offer us no external evidence at all.

K

SOMMS:

You appear to be arguing that you are completely ignorant of all other religions and any claims of evidence offered by any of the adherents of these religions - therefore your claims of monotheism says nothing about the gods of these other religions (of which you are completely unaware). I find this more than a little tough to believe based on some of the conversations I've seen you participate in (including this one).

Are you really trying to claim that your faith is coherent because it's based on ignorance? I'm not saying this approach won't work. It's easier to make coherent beliefs if one never encounters contradictory evidence.

Selsaral

SOMMS, I understand why your personal experience would be a powerful piece of evidence for you, but to me it is the exact opposite. Every day I hear many claims of people as utterly convinced as you are that they were abducted by aliens, saved by Allah, told the future, talked to their dead relatives etc. My friend's husband is a scientology convert and is so brainwashed by the dogma that he gives much of his money, and his dignity and happiness to that evil cult. No amount of debunking or discussion can even dent his devotion to Xenu. It cannot be denied that human beings have experiences like you do, that they often ascribe to religious events, and over the course of human history is most often connected to a religion other than christianity. From my perspective, your devotion is no different than the scientology convert, or the person positive John Edwards really does talk to dead people. You don't find it suspicious that your experiences are not unique to you, and certainly not unique to your religion, and are clearly a feature of human nature?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar,
A quick note since you may have happened upon this post late...I am not attempting to offer you evidence. I am not attempting to prove God to you or give you a reason to consider one belief over another (say Hinduism vs Islam).


All I am saying is 'Here is some evidence that I see...this supports my belief in God'. I am saying that I do have some reason to believe in God. Therefore my (not necessarily your) belief in God is not irrational.

Wouldn't you agree?



Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K,
Monotheism is a philosophy K. All I simply discussing logical statements, evidence and belief and how they are related.

Surely you don't hold that the statement 'A Dodge Caravan exists' makes a claim about other cars.


No...not at all.


I think this may clear things up a bit.

There is a difference between:
1-Person A claiming 'X exists'

and

2-Person A claiming 'X exists' and 'A, B, C, D...Y, Z don't exist'

Indeed, there are infinite things that don't exist. Person A can't possibly be making a statement about each of those things by claiming 'X exists'. True?



In truth K, you already know this...it's obvious and your more than smart enough to have figured this out. It seems like you are avoiding the issue of how the evidence and my belief are related.


I mean if you want to have a whole discussion on why I chose Christianity over Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam...great. I am more than happy to discuss this. However, 'Why I chose Christianity and not Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam' is a completely different subject than what we are talking about here which is 'How is my belief in God irrational?'.



Surely you would agree with this.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Selsaral,
This is fine...I have no problem with that.


Again...I am perfectly fine with how you feel about these.


That's just it. They are unique to me. I did not experience these things when I was an atheist or when I was searching. Relative to me (not you) these are unique experiences. Now please understand...I am not trying to prove God to you or get you to believe in God. I am not presenting why someone should choose one belief over another. All I am saying is that for me, my belief in God is rational...I have reason to believe God exists. Therefore my belief in God is not irrational.




Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Selsaral

Yes, I understand this SOMMS. My point is: why do you think your experiences are evidence (to you) of god, while other people's experiences of other gods, supernatural events etc, aren't? Or do you think every single supernatural phenomena ever claimed actually occured? If not, then these people are having these profound experiences in the absence of supernatural phenomena. In fact, even if christianity is true, the VAST majority of spiritual experiences by human beings occured in the complete absence of supernatural phenomena. You've never entertained the idea that your experiences are simply part of the human condition (as the vast majority are), and not evidence (to you) of a god?