Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ChristianSkeptic · 11-04-2001, 10:53 AM

Apparently, the topic that Aravindan and I were discussing/debating has been removed from the formal debate forum.

I would like to get feedback from all those who followed the discussion.

In short, tell me what you think of my case.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: ChristianSkeptic ]

Pantera · 11-04-2001, 03:37 PM

It hasn't been removed. You just need to adjust the box on the index page which says "Show topics from last 20 days" to a higher value.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Pantera ]

ChristianSkeptic · 11-05-2001, 06:20 AM

Pantera:...You just need to adjust the box on the index page which says "Show topics from last 20 days" to a higher value."

Thanks Pantera,

but I guess its not to early to ask for feedback from anyone who has followed the discussion.

lpetrich · 11-05-2001, 05:50 PM

I followed it, but I was disappointed in it. It did not seem to get anywhere, and ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?) time on generalities, and not on some of the specific issues I've mentioned. Also, that debate did not get into several important issues:

* Mohenjo-Daro vs. Vedic culture

Horses figure prominently in the Vedas, yet are absent from Harappan art, despite their featuring an abundance of wild and domestic animals. Why bulls and elephants but not horses?

Several other differences, such as irrigation-builders vs. dam-breakers

* Vedic and Early Iranian Similarities

Soma, fire altars, etc.

* Forgetfulness of Invasions

This often happens unless some deliberate attempt is made to remember them; the Vedas were composed a few hundred years or so after the Aryan invasions, when they had settled down in India. Also, _arya_ would have had the same semantic evolution as our word "noble", meaning first "aristocrat" and later "dignified".

* The Caste System

It started out as the Indo-European three functions (priests [Brahmans], soldiers [Kshatriyas], producers [Vaisyas]), with a fourth one added beneath them [Shudras]; this may be a byproduct of conquerors seeing themselves as separate from the conquered ones.

* The Sanskrit language

Closely related to early Iranian languages, and more distantly to the rest of the Indo-European family. Dravidian, however, is clearly non-Indo-European.

Sanskrit has retroflex consonants that are absent from all other IE groups; these are probably a Dravidian borrowing.

Likewise, Sanskrit has words for equatorial-climate animals, like mongooses and antelopes, that correspond to most of IE's words for temperate-climate animals like beavers and elk. Such a semantic shift is easier to picture if Sanskrit was an import than what the non-AIT view implies: an out-of-India origin for the IE languages.

* Genetic Differences between Castes

Results are somewhat preliminary, but upper and lower castes do seem like two separate populations that are only partially mixed. (recent article in _Science_ magazine)

* Is The AIT Really Degrading?

Lots of other invasion hypotheses are accepted without them being considered degrading to various national heritages. Nobody in Great Britain considers the Angle-Saxon-Jute invasion hypothesis the least bit degrading, for example.

I come out on the pro-AIT side, though it must be said that every reasonable advocate of it also acknowledges an abundance of pre-Aryan survivals.

ChristianSkeptic · 11-07-2001, 01:24 PM

Lpetrich: I followed it, but I was disappointed in it.

ChristianSkeptic (CS): This is not surprising given your statement below.

Lpetrich: It did not seem to get anywhere, and ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?) time on generalities,

CS: How much would be too much time on generalities? Why would you not find my posts of July 19, August 19, 23 relevant to the discussion?

I like to think they served as they were applied in the September 23 post to engulf Aravindan’s case.

You just do not seem to understand a balanced holistic approach to the subject apart from your reductionism. I take it for granted that you were educated in the “West” or at least you are someone who has been taught this approach.

Lpetrich: ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?)…

CS: I’m a psychologically androgynous/balanced male

Lpetrich: …and not on some of the specific issues I've mentioned.

ChristianSkeptic: so you were disappointed because we did not address your specific issues. OK.

Lpetrich: …Horses figure prominently in the Vedas, yet are absent from Harappan art…

CS: This is an argument from silence, a logical fallacy I managed to avoid. Granted the geographic background that I gave does strengthen your point.

Anyway, I recall you having great difficulty addressing the question of how those chariots and horses got across the mountains.

A holistic approach, which incorporates geography, solves this problem as it highlights the presents of mountain passes and the overall geography of Central Asia.

Lpetrich: Several other differences, such as irrigation-builders vs. dam-breakers

CS: Who cares? All such issues are reflection of culture [and geography].

Therefore, I chose to address the larger sciences of human action: economics, political science [political economy], psychology, geography and anthropology.

Your approach Lpetrich neglects the more interesting human element in all this.

Lpetrich: * Vedic and Early Iranian Similarities

CS: Language is a by-product of culture so one does not have to know the language in question to address the issue in depth and I simply do not know the language.

Lpetrich: * Forgetfulness of Invasions

CS: Maybe so, but Aravindan made the point that the early Sanskrit literature does mention urbanization.

Initially you argued the contrary.

lpetrich: * The Caste System

CS: I rasied this issue as well. I guess I failed to make the point more directly that it is the emotional content of ritual in the caste system and its underlying issue of purity and pollution that is at the roots of the violence.

lpetrich: * Genetic Differences between Castes

CS: I think you won that debating point. My approach identifies the source of the political conflict between these competing groups.

lpetrich: * Is The AIT Really Degrading?

CS: Actually I do not think that ART-AIT and Indian nationalism are mutual exclusive.

Since there can be reconciliation between groups.

KNOW JESUS-KNOW PEACE. NO JESUS-NO PEACE.
(Granted a lot more needs to be said to make the point)

lpetrich: I come out on the pro-AIT side,

CS: For me the issue is race since the mode of arrival military invasion or chance migration would not change the politics.

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: ChristianSkeptic ]

lpetrich · 11-07-2001, 03:40 PM

[Lpetrich: It did not seem to get anywhere, and ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?) time on generalities,

CS: How much would be too much time on generalities? ...

LP:
Several lengthy posts that mainly contained general stuff on methodology.

CS:
You just do not seem to understand a balanced holistic approach to the subject apart from your reductionism. I take it for granted that you were educated in the “West” or at least you are someone who has been taught this approach.

LP:
I have lived in the "West" all my life; the farthest I've ever gotten from the US has been Russia.

Lpetrich: …and not on some of the specific issues I've mentioned.

ChristianSkeptic: so you were disappointed because we did not address your specific issues. OK.

LP:
These specific issues are very important to the question of whether any sort of "Aryan invasion" had taken place.

Lpetrich: …Horses figure prominently in the Vedas, yet are absent from Harappan art…

CS: This is an argument from silence, a logical fallacy I managed to avoid. ...

LP:
That's no fallacy; it's simply an argument that has to be used carefully. Arguments from silence are reasonable if the silence can be reasonably considered to be unexpected. If horses had been as abundant as cows and elephants in Harappan society, then why are there pictures of cows and elephants but not horses?

CS:
Anyway, I recall you having great difficulty addressing the question of how those chariots and horses got across the mountains.

LP:
I had no difficulty; the problem was with HindooHeathen's standards of proof. Would going back in a time machine and watching people bring horses and chariots through the mountains of Afghanistan be the only evidence that HindooHeathen would find convincing?

A holistic approach, which incorporates geography, solves this problem as it highlights the presents of mountain passes and the overall geography of Central Asia.

Lpetrich: * Vedic and Early Iranian Similarities

CS: Language is a by-product of culture so one does not have to know the language in question to address the issue in depth and I simply do not know the language.

LP:
Language is a human universal, and much of language is essentially independent of other cultural features. What profound cultural significance is there in using one set of sounds for a word instead of some other? Of putting the verb at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle, as is often done? Or the adjective after the noun, instead of before it? Of omitting subject pronouns or the present tense of "to be"? Most of the time, essentially none.

Good place to look for examples: http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml

Lpetrich: * Forgetfulness of Invasions

CS: Maybe so, but Aravindan made the point that the early Sanskrit literature does mention urbanization.
Initially you argued the contrary.

LP:
However, the Vedas don't have a very urbanized setting.

hinduwoman · 11-07-2001, 06:13 PM

Actually Vedas themselves do not offer any proof either way. Anyone can use them to argue that AIT is a fact or that the Aryans originated in one part of India and came into conflict with other tribes.

What one needs to base the argument on is solid archeological findings, and all the other points Ipetrich raised.

hinduwoman · 11-07-2001, 06:24 PM

Ipetrich AIT is by itself not degrading. Personally I don't care.

But the problems arise when it is used for political purposes. Many racist anthropologists used it to demonstrate that white races are superior: the white Aryans conquered the native blacks, because a black is automatically lacking in courage and leadership qualities. so many Shudras, reject it. Many argue that this means the upper castes have no right to live in India. Finally, for many this has become a question of national identity: if you do not belong to this country you cannot be a true son of the soil and a patriot. I think they are wrong because assimilation is more important, but that is the way many feel.

It would also help if many academics would stop writing things like "the sudra women were served up to the libedinious appetite of rapacious Brahmins" --- I am pretty tired of reading sentences like this in both Western and Indian texts.

phaedrus · 11-08-2001, 01:24 AM

Dum di Dum

ChristianSkeptic · 11-08-2001, 08:34 AM

LP: Several lengthy posts that mainly contained general stuff on methodology.

CS: But methodology is cool

, and it can be sexy too.

LP: I have lived in the "West" all my life; the farthest I've ever gotten from the US has been Russia.

CS: So you do not deny the point that your approach is reductionistic, with all its limitations and value.

LP: These specific issues are very important to the question of whether any sort of "Aryan invasion" had taken place.

CS: Yes they are “very” important, but by no means are they exhaustive. Do you agree? I also like to think that my approach covered more ground rather than debating the absence or presence of horse bones.

LP: …If horses had been as abundant as cows and elephants in Harappan society, then why are there pictures of cows and elephants but not horses?

CS: Absence of evidence, thus far, is not evidence of absence.

LP: Language is a human universal, and much of language is essentially independent of other cultural features.

CS: My point is that if culture does not exist then language would not exist. Do you agree? Afterall, language is simply a reflection of patterns of thought and experiences (as affected by the geography), which is a component of culture. You can have a culture without a written or verbal language but you cannot have a language without a culture/nation/people.

Which brings us back to my point that your approach leaves out the human element in all this. In contrast, I able to identify underlying causes that best explain interesting contemporary affairs (IMCO).

LP: What profound cultural significance is there in using one set of sounds for a word instead of some other?…Good place to look for examples: http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml

CS: Interesting, but do not I have the time to really study the subject in depth. I will simply trust your and others’ judgment.

11-04-2001, 10:53 AM	#1
ChristianSkeptic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Jefferson City, MO USA Posts: 34	Feedback on debate with Aravindan on ART Apparently, the topic that Aravindan and I were discussing/debating has been removed from the formal debate forum. I would like to get feedback from all those who followed the discussion. In short, tell me what you think of my case. [ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: ChristianSkeptic ]

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11-04-2001, 03:37 PM	#2
Pantera Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cambridge, England, but a Scot at heart Posts: 2,431	It hasn't been removed. You just need to adjust the box on the index page which says "Show topics from last 20 days" to a higher value. [ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Pantera ]

11-05-2001, 06:20 AM	#3
ChristianSkeptic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Jefferson City, MO USA Posts: 34	Pantera:...You just need to adjust the box on the index page which says "Show topics from last 20 days" to a higher value." Thanks Pantera, but I guess its not to early to ask for feedback from anyone who has followed the discussion.

11-05-2001, 05:50 PM	#4
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I followed it, but I was disappointed in it. It did not seem to get anywhere, and ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?) time on generalities, and not on some of the specific issues I've mentioned. Also, that debate did not get into several important issues: * Mohenjo-Daro vs. Vedic culture Horses figure prominently in the Vedas, yet are absent from Harappan art, despite their featuring an abundance of wild and domestic animals. Why bulls and elephants but not horses? Several other differences, such as irrigation-builders vs. dam-breakers * Vedic and Early Iranian Similarities Soma, fire altars, etc. * Forgetfulness of Invasions This often happens unless some deliberate attempt is made to remember them; the Vedas were composed a few hundred years or so after the Aryan invasions, when they had settled down in India. Also, _arya_ would have had the same semantic evolution as our word "noble", meaning first "aristocrat" and later "dignified". * The Caste System It started out as the Indo-European three functions (priests [Brahmans], soldiers [Kshatriyas], producers [Vaisyas]), with a fourth one added beneath them [Shudras]; this may be a byproduct of conquerors seeing themselves as separate from the conquered ones. * The Sanskrit language Closely related to early Iranian languages, and more distantly to the rest of the Indo-European family. Dravidian, however, is clearly non-Indo-European. Sanskrit has retroflex consonants that are absent from all other IE groups; these are probably a Dravidian borrowing. Likewise, Sanskrit has words for equatorial-climate animals, like mongooses and antelopes, that correspond to most of IE's words for temperate-climate animals like beavers and elk. Such a semantic shift is easier to picture if Sanskrit was an import than what the non-AIT view implies: an out-of-India origin for the IE languages. * Genetic Differences between Castes Results are somewhat preliminary, but upper and lower castes do seem like two separate populations that are only partially mixed. (recent article in _Science_ magazine) * Is The AIT Really Degrading? Lots of other invasion hypotheses are accepted without them being considered degrading to various national heritages. Nobody in Great Britain considers the Angle-Saxon-Jute invasion hypothesis the least bit degrading, for example. I come out on the pro-AIT side, though it must be said that every reasonable advocate of it also acknowledges an abundance of pre-Aryan survivals.

11-07-2001, 01:24 PM	#5
ChristianSkeptic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Jefferson City, MO USA Posts: 34	Lpetrich: I followed it, but I was disappointed in it. ChristianSkeptic (CS): This is not surprising given your statement below. Lpetrich: It did not seem to get anywhere, and ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?) time on generalities, CS: How much would be too much time on generalities? Why would you not find my posts of July 19, August 19, 23 relevant to the discussion? I like to think they served as they were applied in the September 23 post to engulf Aravindan’s case. You just do not seem to understand a balanced holistic approach to the subject apart from your reductionism. I take it for granted that you were educated in the “West” or at least you are someone who has been taught this approach. Lpetrich: ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?)… CS: I’m a psychologically androgynous/balanced male Lpetrich: …and not on some of the specific issues I've mentioned. ChristianSkeptic: so you were disappointed because we did not address your specific issues. OK. Lpetrich: …Horses figure prominently in the Vedas, yet are absent from Harappan art… CS: This is an argument from silence, a logical fallacy I managed to avoid. Granted the geographic background that I gave does strengthen your point. Anyway, I recall you having great difficulty addressing the question of how those chariots and horses got across the mountains. A holistic approach, which incorporates geography, solves this problem as it highlights the presents of mountain passes and the overall geography of Central Asia. Lpetrich: Several other differences, such as irrigation-builders vs. dam-breakers CS: Who cares? All such issues are reflection of culture [and geography]. Therefore, I chose to address the larger sciences of human action: economics, political science [political economy], psychology, geography and anthropology. Your approach Lpetrich neglects the more interesting human element in all this. *Lpetrich: Vedic and Early Iranian Similarities CS: Language is a by-product of culture so one does not have to know the language in question to address the issue in depth and I simply do not know the language. Lpetrich: * Forgetfulness of Invasions CS: Maybe so, but Aravindan made the point that the early Sanskrit literature does mention urbanization. Initially you argued the contrary. lpetrich: * The Caste System CS: I rasied this issue as well. I guess I failed to make the point more directly that it is the emotional content of ritual in the caste system and its underlying issue of purity and pollution that is at the roots of the violence. lpetrich: * Genetic Differences between Castes CS: I think you won that debating point. My approach identifies the source of the political conflict between these competing groups. lpetrich: * Is The AIT Really Degrading? CS: Actually I do not think that ART-AIT and Indian nationalism are mutual exclusive. Since there can be reconciliation between groups. KNOW JESUS-KNOW PEACE. NO JESUS-NO PEACE. (Granted a lot more needs to be said to make the point) lpetrich: I come out on the pro-AIT side,** CS: For me the issue is race since the mode of arrival military invasion or chance migration would not change the politics. [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: ChristianSkeptic ]

11-07-2001, 03:40 PM	#6
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	[Lpetrich: It did not seem to get anywhere, and ChristianSkeptic spent much of his (her?) time on generalities, CS: How much would be too much time on generalities? ... LP: Several lengthy posts that mainly contained general stuff on methodology. CS: You just do not seem to understand a balanced holistic approach to the subject apart from your reductionism. I take it for granted that you were educated in the “West” or at least you are someone who has been taught this approach. LP: I have lived in the "West" all my life; the farthest I've ever gotten from the US has been Russia. Lpetrich: …and not on some of the specific issues I've mentioned. ChristianSkeptic: so you were disappointed because we did not address your specific issues. OK. LP: These specific issues are very important to the question of whether any sort of "Aryan invasion" had taken place. Lpetrich: …Horses figure prominently in the Vedas, yet are absent from Harappan art… CS: This is an argument from silence, a logical fallacy I managed to avoid. ... LP: That's no fallacy; it's simply an argument that has to be used carefully. Arguments from silence are reasonable if the silence can be reasonably considered to be unexpected. If horses had been as abundant as cows and elephants in Harappan society, then why are there pictures of cows and elephants but not horses? CS: Anyway, I recall you having great difficulty addressing the question of how those chariots and horses got across the mountains. LP: I had no difficulty; the problem was with HindooHeathen's standards of proof. Would going back in a time machine and watching people bring horses and chariots through the mountains of Afghanistan be the only evidence that HindooHeathen would find convincing? A holistic approach, which incorporates geography, solves this problem as it highlights the presents of mountain passes and the overall geography of Central Asia. Lpetrich: * Vedic and Early Iranian Similarities CS: Language is a by-product of culture so one does not have to know the language in question to address the issue in depth and I simply do not know the language. LP: Language is a human universal, and much of language is essentially independent of other cultural features. What profound cultural significance is there in using one set of sounds for a word instead of some other? Of putting the verb at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle, as is often done? Or the adjective after the noun, instead of before it? Of omitting subject pronouns or the present tense of "to be"? Most of the time, essentially none. Good place to look for examples: http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml Lpetrich: * Forgetfulness of Invasions CS: Maybe so, but Aravindan made the point that the early Sanskrit literature does mention urbanization. Initially you argued the contrary. LP: However, the Vedas don't have a very urbanized setting.

11-07-2001, 06:13 PM	#7
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Actually Vedas themselves do not offer any proof either way. Anyone can use them to argue that AIT is a fact or that the Aryans originated in one part of India and came into conflict with other tribes. What one needs to base the argument on is solid archeological findings, and all the other points Ipetrich raised.

11-07-2001, 06:24 PM	#8
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Ipetrich AIT is by itself not degrading. Personally I don't care. But the problems arise when it is used for political purposes. Many racist anthropologists used it to demonstrate that white races are superior: the white Aryans conquered the native blacks, because a black is automatically lacking in courage and leadership qualities. so many Shudras, reject it. Many argue that this means the upper castes have no right to live in India. Finally, for many this has become a question of national identity: if you do not belong to this country you cannot be a true son of the soil and a patriot. I think they are wrong because assimilation is more important, but that is the way many feel. It would also help if many academics would stop writing things like "the sudra women were served up to the libedinious appetite of rapacious Brahmins" --- I am pretty tired of reading sentences like this in both Western and Indian texts.

11-08-2001, 01:24 AM	#9
phaedrus Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Indus Posts: 1,038	Dum di Dum

11-08-2001, 08:34 AM	#10
ChristianSkeptic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Jefferson City, MO USA Posts: 34	LP: Several lengthy posts that mainly contained general stuff on methodology. CS: But methodology is cool , and it can be sexy too. LP: I have lived in the "West" all my life; the farthest I've ever gotten from the US has been Russia. CS: So you do not deny the point that your approach is reductionistic, with all its limitations and value. LP: These specific issues are very important to the question of whether any sort of "Aryan invasion" had taken place. CS: Yes they are “very” important, but by no means are they exhaustive. Do you agree? I also like to think that my approach covered more ground rather than debating the absence or presence of horse bones. LP: …If horses had been as abundant as cows and elephants in Harappan society, then why are there pictures of cows and elephants but not horses? CS: Absence of evidence, thus far, is not evidence of absence. LP: Language is a human universal, and much of language is essentially independent of other cultural features. CS: My point is that if culture does not exist then language would not exist. Do you agree? Afterall, language is simply a reflection of patterns of thought and experiences (as affected by the geography), which is a component of culture. You can have a culture without a written or verbal language but you cannot have a language without a culture/nation/people. Which brings us back to my point that your approach leaves out the human element in all this. In contrast, I able to identify underlying causes that best explain interesting contemporary affairs (IMCO). LP: What profound cultural significance is there in using one set of sounds for a word instead of some other?…Good place to look for examples: http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml CS: Interesting, but do not I have the time to really study the subject in depth. I will simply trust your and others’ judgment.

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