Tom Sawyer

This comes out of a discussion within another thread. Basically, it was about what evidence an atheist would need to believe that there was some kind of deity at work in the universe. Not necessarily the Judeo-Christian one, but any old "God".

There were two main events that were talked about in that thread:

First, someone appears infront of you, levitates you 10 feet into the air, puts you back on the ground and then vanishes.

Second, you find yourself 20 years back in time, in your younger body, fully aware of your life during those 20 years. It is the night of a major turning point in your life where you made a bad decision that negatively impacted the next 20 years. Through some unexplained event, you are back in a position to correct that mistake and change your life and the lives of others for the better.


My answer was that the first one, while I wouldn't be able to explain it, wouldn't necessarily be an event that I would attribute to a deity. It would seem like kind of a weak and pathetic way for any sort of god to spend its time and would look for another explanation (alien, new technology, etc) that while unbelievable to me now, would be a better answer than a god, if something like that were to happen.

The second event, however, I would have to attribute to a god and it would make me a believer. Namely, this was due to the increased power level it would take to do something like this and all the moral and life-changing implications of being put back into that exact situation. I'd have to conclude a divine influence in that situation.

So basically, my question is, what would it take for you to believe? Are you like Paul, where a blinding light and booming voice would convert you or would you tell the guy to take his trick to Disneyland? What would a god have to do to show you that it exists?

Radcliffe Emerson

I don't know. But I thought of this last night. What proof do we have anything at all happened to Paul other than his letters claiming it happened?

I suppose if I asked a deity to make me twenty years younger and give me Jessica Alba, and it happened, I might probably believe.

Goliath

When it comes to supernatural claims, no amount of evidence will do. Only proof is sufficient for me to believe in the supernatural.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Starboy

peteyh,

You bring up an interesting question. I know you did not word your question as such, but for the purposes of my post I shall reword it as:

Is there anything that an infinite being could do to convince a finite being that they existed.

I don't think there is anything that an infinite being could do for or to a finite being that would be incontrovertible proof that they existed.
If anyone can think of something that could not be explained by a finite but very powerful being, then I would like to hear it.

The converse of this question would be:

Is there any experiment that a finite being could perform on an infinite being to show that they were infinite?

There are two cases:
1. The being is uncooperative.
2. The being is cooperative.

The first case is easy. The answer is no. For the second case see the first question.

So unless anyone can come up with any good answers to the first question it looks like there is no way to experimentally demonstrate that you are dealing with an infinite being as opposed to a very great but finite being. Now if god is allowed to be finite being then we might have a chance.

Starboy

Bill Snedden

Of course, some might say that the very existence of Jessica Alba is proof that an omnibenevolent deity does indeed exist.

I prefer to see it as further evidence that evolution works very, very, very well...

To stay on topic, I think it would take some kind of very personal, very dramatic sort of event. One that would be in some way beyond any mere physical "miracle" and that would somehow fill me with an inner conviction of Truth.

I can't specify what that form that event would have to be, but I've no doubt that an omniscient, omnipotent deity should have little trouble arranging it...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]</p>

Viti

I remember a Ray Bradbury story where everyone on Earth shared a dream where they were given the knowledge that the world would end that night. I think some shared worldwide event like that (hopefully not that the world was ending)...but I don't know.

frostymama

I would have to get a full night of sleep (no kids puking on me) and wake up in a size 6 body with perky boobs, perfect teeth, and normal legs.

Hell, I'd go fundy for that.

Deacon

Yes, but if you went fundy you'd feel compelled to save your size 6 body, perky boobs, perfect teeth, normal legs for the Lord. And there's the rub.

Cretinist

As Starboy has said, it would be impossible for God, in the sense of the omnimax creator of the universe, to prove what it is in any logically rigorous way. Nothing it could do would distinguish it from a finite but very powerful being.

But the question is what would it take for me to believe in God? Well, I suppose a personal meeting with this being, followed by some very tough questions, and a very dramatic demonstration of its power would be sufficient.

Also, I'd probably need to be in contact with this being on a somewhat regular basis, otherwise I would probably conclude I just hallucinated the whole thing or something. And by contact, I mean something more personal than merely hearing a voice in my head. A talking burning bush would do every now and then.

MrDarwin

The discovery of a written religious text which had clearly and obviously been buried for hundreds or thousands of years (along the lines of the Dead Sea Scrolls), with at least some of the writing in English or any other modern language, accurately and specifically predicting its own discovery and/or modern events--meaning names and dates--both from the recent past that could be immediately corroborated, plus some from the near future, that by happening would show it to be accurate, would be pretty close to the top of items that would make me stop and think.

Of course, a visit from God himself would be at the very top. Since he's supposed to be both omnipotent and omnipresent, I'm not sure what's stopping him!

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>