Douglas J. Bender

Joshua,


From the "BaptistBoard..." thread over in "Rants, Raves, and Preaching, Etc.":
Well, how do you reconcile your stand, and your claim to be a Christian, with the following quotes from the Bible?:
By "GLBT", I assume you to mean, "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transexual". If so, you are truly confused about what the Bible clearly teaches regarding sexual "orientation" and morality.

That's fine. I've got a fair amount of time sometimes, and feel that this is a very important issue for those who are unbelievers. Many are deceived into thinking that anyone who claims to be Christian, or a "minister", actually represents Jesus or the Bible, or truth.

Okay.

None that I am aware of. I used to think so, but that was before I studied the issues carefully, and with an open mind.

Or, they are far less skilled at "self-delusion". Actually, the way you phrase it is rather misleading, as you say that the Bible indicates that God was "incapable" of finding a way to atone for sin apart from Jesus' death - Jesus Himself suggests that this was not the case, in His Garden of Gethsemane prayer: "'Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.'" (Mark 14:36). God determined that it was BEST that sins be atoned for by Jesus' death - there clearly is no way for a human being to atone for their own, or another's sins, however.

And, the reason why Jesus died for the sins of mankind is quite simple: Jesus was sinless, and not only that, He was (and is) God. Every human being (apart from Jesus) has and will sin, and it is very simple to understand that justice requires that sin be punished, and that if it is not, then justice has not been "served"/"dealt". Because of our own blindness to true holiness, and to the actual "sinfulness" of our own sin, it might be that we find it difficult to understand why any sin requires a punishment of death, but that would be a reflection of our own ignorance of God's holiness and of the depth of our own sinfulness. The punishment was "meted out" to Jesus, thus satisfying God's justice, but allowing God to justly extend mercy to those who acknowledge their need for a Savior, and trust that Jesus paid for their sins. This is the CORE of Christianity, Joshua - to not understand this or to deny it renders one unfit for Christian ministry.

In Christ,

Douglas

Grizzly

Douglas,

I find it interesting that you have around here so long, yet you cannot see how others can view the "Salvation Story" as being at odds with an all-loving omnipotent God. But I do not wish to derail this thread.

It seems that you have called Joshua out onto the carpet because of his stance towards homosexuality. Since it does state in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, I can see where you have a point. But the bible is full of laws direct from God. Do you follow all of them? Specifically,

1) If you were to ever meet a witch, would you kill her as God has commanded?
2) Do you eat pork?
3) Do you eat milk with your meat?
4) Do you keep holy the sabbath (Saturday)?
5) Do you condone killing a woman by stoning her to death because she has committed adultery?

If you do not follow all of these precepts, can you explain to me your criteria for judging God's commandments as either worthy of being followed or not so worthy?

Rev. Joshua

Douglas, you raise several questions here. I'll try to address them as clearly and concisely as possible. It should be noted, however, that the questions you are raising are generally discussed in 20 page journal articles - not in a single paragraph on a discussion forum. It's really hard to do these issues justice in this format.

Regarding the Leviticus passage, the vast majority of Christians eat things called abominations in Leviticus with no difficulty.

Regarding Matthew 5:17-19, a few verses later (MT 5:38) Jesus clearly contradicts the Law (Ex 21:23-24); so Jesus' ministry clearly takes precedence over the Law.

Regarding Romans 1, that passage is not a polemic against homosexuality but rather a farily generic contemporary example of debauchery. See Robin Scroggs' Homosexuality and the New Testament for a full treatment of this topic.

</strong>

I'll take my knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, and the history of biblical interpretation over your opinion any day. Again, see Scroggs' book or many of the other excellent exegetical works on the subject.

</strong>

I feel the same way, but apparently for the opposite reason. It concerns me when backwoods pseudo-theologians and evangelical "scholars" with incestuous degrees from unrecognized universities claim to be the sole representatives of Christianity. For the record, my credentials in this area are: a personal testimony of faith in Jesus Christ, an undergraduate degree in literature and philosophy, a rigorous Master of Divinity (including biblical languages) from an ATS accredited seminary, ordination as a baptist minister (my ordination council was composed of Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopal clergy - most of whom were seminary faculty), full endorsement as a chaplain, and postgraduate work in rhetoric and literature. My "claims" to Christianity and expertise are well-substantiated. Are yours?

</strong>

So, if God's holiness is the opposite of sinfullness, and if sinfullness includes things like the murder of innocents, how does murdering an innocent satisfy God's holy justice? Likewise, how can God be considered holy and just if God demands the murder of innocents (not just Jesus - look at Jepthah's daughter as well)?

I reconcile this by recognizing that life and death mean different things to a divine being and by also recognizing that I do not need to understand the crucifixion to be grateful for it. That doesn't mean that I need to pretend that it makes sense.

Fortunately, to my knowledge I am not accountable to you for my ecclesiastical standing. Out of curiousity, is anyone? The core of Christianity is recognizing the sinfullness of humanity and the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ. Recognition is not the same thing as understanding.

Joshua

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]</p>

Mad Kally

[quote]posted by Douglas Bender:
Well, how do you reconcile your stand, and your claim to be a Christian, with the following quotes from the Bible?:


Douglas,
How do you reconcile your stand, and your claim to be a Christian, with the folling quotes from the bible?:

Bree

If that's where the inspiration for this thread comes from, that's where this thread goes...