Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ojuice5001 · 07-25-2003, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-xian
Wow. I thought this was a parody post at first, then I realized the OPer was serious. So, Ojuice5001, I am curious about how you form you idea of what gods actually exist. Do you believe that all the gods of roman mythology exist, or only jupiter? What about the gods of norse and hebrew mythology (you mentioned yawheh, but I mean baal, ashtorah, etc)?

Also, how do you determine which god rules over what area? Is it all subjective feelings/messages, or is there some outward criteria?

I'm not being facetious, I'm truly curious to learn more about what you believe...this is facinating.

Oh, btw, atheism is not a modern invention. There was a whole group of ancient greeks, ionians I think, who rejected the greek gods and all the other gods. The believed that nature could be explained in totally materialistic ways; I first read about them in Carl Sagan's Cosmos. There have always been atheists throughout history.

By the way, what were the gods of the post-enlightenment doing before and during the enlightenment.

This thread is bedeviled by half a dozen forms of weirdness. If you still care after the three weeks that have elasped since your post, ask your questions in a new thread.

Moderators, if any of you agree that this is a train-wreck of a thread, or don't want it bumped up like this (sorry, it's a real compulsion for some odd reason), I would welcome its closure as much as anyone. I can and do consider the validity of the other people's points of view, but this thread was created under such a strange mood that I somehow can't stand the thought of it. For a while this mood extended to the whole II forum, and even now I can't count on it being gone.

fried beef sandwich · 07-25-2003, 01:51 PM

Hey Ojuice,

A couple years ago I was brainstorming to myself: what type of God could I worship or believe in? I came to the conclusion that, assuming that supernatural deities exist, it made a lot more logical sense that there were multiple deities out there with competing interests or focii.

Then I thought about Athena/Minerva, the goddess of reason - and I thought that, taken to its logical extension, Athena/Minerva probably didn't care whether or not her followers ended up worshipping her or giving her sacrifices if it conflicted with human reason.

And then I thought what if there was a god out there who didn't care about being worshipped or sending humans to heaven/hell on the basis of what you think about him/her, but just chose to do everything good, just, noble in the first place. That god could not be an omnimax god to match up with the reality of the world around me, but s/he would be the type of god I would want to shake her hand.

Anyway, the point of this post is, if I ever begin believing in gods again, I'd probably be polytheist. It seems a lot more fun anyhow.

Eudaimonist · 07-25-2003, 04:22 PM

OJ, serious answer:

1) You aren't likely to be successful selling something to someone who already has found what they were looking for. You go to people who are looking for something. (Atheists, despite not having a religion, aren't generally looking for one either.) Why aren't you hanging out around young "seekers" of the sort who might frequent New Ager or pagan groups?

2) It's strange, but sometimes computer games and novels can have quite an effect on a young person's worldview. Do you have any computer programming skills? Why not write a game similar to Sid Meyer's Civilization strategy games, except have players play gods who are attempting to control parts of the world for themselves, just as you believe actually happens? Or write a novel about that?

Jinto · 07-25-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

2) It's strange, but sometimes computer games and novels can have quite an effect on a young person's worldview. Do you have any computer programming skills? Why not write a game similar to Sid Meyer's Civilization strategy games, except have players play gods who are attempting to control parts of the world for themselves, just as you believe actually happens? Or write a novel about that?

Why would OJ want to write a copy of Black & White?

Corona688 · 07-27-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001
Have you known me to state this right-out? To say that I don't need to consider atheists' opinions, because they were suggested by enemy gods?

No, but you should have. It would have saved a great deal of wasted time.

Quote:

No, because the fact that I think this doesn't invalidate the possibility that they're good arguments and I'm wrong.

??? That makes no sense at all. When you START WITH the assumption that what atheists are saying is god-driven then OBVIOUSLY you're not going to believe them when they say there's no god! An atheists opinions on god, at the very least, are automatically dismissed by this paradigm.

Quote:

How is this different from any other theory about the causes of human thought, like materialism for example?

Because I don't start with an assumption; I try to make NO assumptions about the state of the universe. Let the FACTS guide your thinking, notl wishful magical thought; news flash, deities are a HUMAN invention.

Quote:

I neither know nor care whether you're a materialist, but say A is a materialist who believes all events are caused material processes, and B is an idealist who thinks matter doesn't even exist. Now, for A to be consistent, he'd have to think that B's idealism is not only wrong, but caused by material processes.

You're missing the point. There is a HUGE difference between 'I don't agree with you' and 'Your very thoughts are being caused by malicious enemy gods.' Material processes aren't trying to unwittingly force you and me to speak untruth. You believe those malicious enemy gods are.

In other words, you have STARTED WITH the assumption that everything we say about gods is WRONG. There is no rational discourse with that kind of mindset.

Quote:

A could still understand B's reasons (as I try to do with atheists), but his position does entail that B's thoughts are caused by the matter he disbelieves in.

This is an irrelevant example. Again, my problem is not that you disagree with us, but that you have STARTED WITH the assumption that EVERYTHING WE SAY ABOUT GODS is wrong.

Jobar · 07-27-2003, 06:34 PM

OJuice: Moderators, if any of you agree that this is a train-wreck of a thread, or don't want it bumped up like this (sorry, it's a real compulsion for some odd reason), I would welcome its closure as much as anyone.

This thread had been inactive for three weeks, then *you* bumped it up, OJ.

I'm not one of the mods in this forum, but might I suggest you just leave it alone? It'll die a natural death, I assure you.

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07-25-2003, 01:51 PM	#42
fried beef sandwich Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,156	Hey Ojuice, A couple years ago I was brainstorming to myself: what type of God could I worship or believe in? I came to the conclusion that, assuming that supernatural deities exist, it made a lot more logical sense that there were multiple deities out there with competing interests or focii. Then I thought about Athena/Minerva, the goddess of reason - and I thought that, taken to its logical extension, Athena/Minerva probably didn't care whether or not her followers ended up worshipping her or giving her sacrifices if it conflicted with human reason. And then I thought what if there was a god out there who didn't care about being worshipped or sending humans to heaven/hell on the basis of what you think about him/her, but just chose to do everything good, just, noble in the first place. That god could not be an omnimax god to match up with the reality of the world around me, but s/he would be the type of god I would want to shake her hand. Anyway, the point of this post is, if I ever begin believing in gods again, I'd probably be polytheist. It seems a lot more fun anyhow.

07-25-2003, 04:22 PM	#43
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	OJ, serious answer: 1) You aren't likely to be successful selling something to someone who already has found what they were looking for. You go to people who are looking for something. (Atheists, despite not having a religion, aren't generally looking for one either.) Why aren't you hanging out around young "seekers" of the sort who might frequent New Ager or pagan groups? 2) It's strange, but sometimes computer games and novels can have quite an effect on a young person's worldview. Do you have any computer programming skills? Why not write a game similar to Sid Meyer's Civilization strategy games, except have players play gods who are attempting to control parts of the world for themselves, just as you believe actually happens? Or write a novel about that?

07-27-2003, 06:34 PM	#46
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	OJuice: Moderators, if any of you agree that this is a train-wreck of a thread, or don't want it bumped up like this (sorry, it's a real compulsion for some odd reason), I would welcome its closure as much as anyone. This thread had been inactive for three weeks, then you bumped it up, OJ. I'm not one of the mods in this forum, but might I suggest you just leave it alone? It'll die a natural death, I assure you.

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