Freethought & Rationalism Archive

brighid · 03-13-2002, 10:43 AM

The human animal is an omnivore. Optimal health is achieved by eating a balance of items, including meat. Too much of anything is bad for all of us. I support animal rights and I am an avid pet lover, but I don’t see that as a reason to defy the very nature of my body. I do my best to purchase free range meat – when I can afford it, or from manufacturers that don’t kill dolphins for the tuna, and other such things but until our bodies have evolved to a point where meat is no longer the best source of protein and other vitamins necessary for the healthy functioning of my body – well, I am going to eat meat.

And believe me, if I didn’t have the convenience of the local butcher to harvest the meat for me, I could and would go out and kill the beasties myself.

We are a highly evolved species of animal that has developed harvesting techniques that makes it so we don’t have to go out and be the hunters and gatherers anymore. We have evolved to the point where we don’t suffer as much from the droughts and other cycles of the Earth and therefore advance our species.

And no – your story of Bert didn’t really get to any of us – at least not me. I wouldn’t eat my dog and I think cows and pigs are awfully cute, but I’ll eat them because they are GOOD for me – not in excess of course – and they taste awfully damn good. If you don’t like eating meat – well, that’s great. I respect your right to eat what ever kinds of fruits and vegetables you like, but I have found no compelling evidence that a strictly vegetarian diet is more beneficial to my overall health then a diet that includes meats, as well as fruits, vegetables, grains and all that other yummy stuff. I don’t think it’s cruel to harvest animals for the sustenance of human kind. I don’t support some of the harvesting methods and prefer free range meat myself, but it isn’t always available OR affordable.

So provide a compelling argument, no – oh I couldn’t imagine eating fluffy, therefore I won’t eat any meat – load of none sense. It works for you, but it doesn’t mean it is correct. I can’t change my biology, nor can any other human. We are omnivores, plan and simple and we are healthiest when we eat a diet of an OMNIVORE.

Brighid

Megatron · 03-13-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
If you want to pretend that you're on a higher plane of existence than the one you're on, go right ahead. But as with everything else in this society, if you want to preach your unsupportable opinions to anyone else, my vote is, piss up a rope.

Damn well said... <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Mageth · 03-13-2002, 10:46 AM

Koy:

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

You're my hero!

SallySmith · 03-13-2002, 10:51 AM

Brighid, I told my story of Bert because it is how I personally decided to stop eating meat. I didn't really expect people to be moved to vegetarianism by it - that was a joke. I also said that I don't have a problem with people who eat meat who could go out and kill it for themselves, if that had to be the case. And finally, vegetarians and meat-eaters (in limited amounts) can be equally healthy. I could go to past threads and collect all the damn support for this, but I really don't want to because I'm lazy. I just can't believe people are still throwing around the health aspect of this all.

Edited to add an afterthought: I don't agree that "the human animal is an omnivore." The human animal can choose, which is the whole point. Our biology dictates that we start having babies at age 12 or 13 - we don't do that (hopefully). Shouldn't we? Weren't we "made" to do that?

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: SallySmith ]

brighid · 03-13-2002, 10:59 AM

Why are you surprised at the use of the health argument? We eat to live. Eating incorrectly advances death, promotes disease and one is generally unhealthy. You have said you didn’t make a decision to become a vegetarian based upon your health, but on your cat. And if we can be equally healthy, and you don’t protest those who have the ability to actually kill an animal – what’s the problem? Are you simply arguing against meat eaters who see as hypocritical because the thought of killing an animal may be uncomfortable to them? Are you arguing against eating meat at all?

I think it’s great that you are following your personal convictions and because you don’t have the stomach to actually hunt and kill your own meat, you personally choose NOT to eat meat. However, this is NOT a good argument in support of the universal adoption of vegetarianism or even a good plea for it. And I am familiar with a lot of the data on both sides of the equation and in my personal experience vegetarians are no more or less healthy then those of us who also eat meat. Therefore, I see no compelling reason to stop eating meat in preference of a strictly vegetarian diet.

Brighid

Bill Snedden · 03-13-2002, 11:02 AM

I find it strangely interesting that debates with rabid fundamentalists will often peter out after two or three pages, but threads on communism or vegetarianism keep going, and going, and going... Not only that, they can be much more acrimonious.

(dons moderator hat)

To all:

The level of invective appears to be on the rise. Please remember that civility is requested and expected of all posters. This has been a gentle reminder.

(moderator hat off)

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Megatron · 03-13-2002, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden:
(dons moderator hat)

Hey, now! Look under your name... no "moderator" hat for you!

(Still getting used to the new hat?

)

SallySmith · 03-13-2002, 11:11 AM

brighid, I hope you don't mind the paragraph replies because I hate big long posts with a bunch of quotes and replies. Re: the health argument, what surprises me is that people still think they can claim that a vegetarian diet is unhealthy. This is not true, as long as the vegetarian eats a balanced diet, which is true of meat-eaters as well. I'm not going to argue that you can't be healthy eating a diet that includes meat in limited quantities; I'm just going to argue that you don't need meat to be healthy.

As far as the rest of it, you pretty much nailed it in terms of having a problem with the hypocritical meat-eaters. I don't like the thought of other people killing animals, but I just don't think the case can be made that it is immoral or unethical to do so, as long as it is done humanely. So no, I don't advance my argument as a universal reason to go vegetarian. I do think that environmental destruction would be a universal reason, though.

Last but not least, I didn't stop eating meat "based upon my cat." My cat is what got me thinking about the whole thing. I stopped eating meat based upon the fact that I don't want to kill animals. I like them too much.

bonduca · 03-13-2002, 11:18 AM

(wonders if it is a faux pas to mention that chicken noodle soup at lunch)

SallySmith · 03-13-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:
(wonders if it is a faux pas to mention that chicken noodle soup at lunch)

Well, did you kill the chicken yourself?

03-13-2002, 10:51 AM	#144
SallySmith Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 263	Brighid, I told my story of Bert because it is how I personally decided to stop eating meat. I didn't really expect people to be moved to vegetarianism by it - that was a joke. I also said that I don't have a problem with people who eat meat who could go out and kill it for themselves, if that had to be the case. And finally, vegetarians and meat-eaters (in limited amounts) can be equally healthy. I could go to past threads and collect all the damn support for this, but I really don't want to because I'm lazy. I just can't believe people are still throwing around the health aspect of this all. Edited to add an afterthought: I don't agree that "the human animal is an omnivore." The human animal can choose, which is the whole point. Our biology dictates that we start having babies at age 12 or 13 - we don't do that (hopefully). Shouldn't we? Weren't we "made" to do that? [ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: SallySmith ]</p>

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03-13-2002, 10:43 AM	#141
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	The human animal is an omnivore. Optimal health is achieved by eating a balance of items, including meat. Too much of anything is bad for all of us. I support animal rights and I am an avid pet lover, but I don’t see that as a reason to defy the very nature of my body. I do my best to purchase free range meat – when I can afford it, or from manufacturers that don’t kill dolphins for the tuna, and other such things but until our bodies have evolved to a point where meat is no longer the best source of protein and other vitamins necessary for the healthy functioning of my body – well, I am going to eat meat. And believe me, if I didn’t have the convenience of the local butcher to harvest the meat for me, I could and would go out and kill the beasties myself. We are a highly evolved species of animal that has developed harvesting techniques that makes it so we don’t have to go out and be the hunters and gatherers anymore. We have evolved to the point where we don’t suffer as much from the droughts and other cycles of the Earth and therefore advance our species. And no – your story of Bert didn’t really get to any of us – at least not me. I wouldn’t eat my dog and I think cows and pigs are awfully cute, but I’ll eat them because they are GOOD for me – not in excess of course – and they taste awfully damn good. If you don’t like eating meat – well, that’s great. I respect your right to eat what ever kinds of fruits and vegetables you like, but I have found no compelling evidence that a strictly vegetarian diet is more beneficial to my overall health then a diet that includes meats, as well as fruits, vegetables, grains and all that other yummy stuff. I don’t think it’s cruel to harvest animals for the sustenance of human kind. I don’t support some of the harvesting methods and prefer free range meat myself, but it isn’t always available OR affordable. So provide a compelling argument, no – oh I couldn’t imagine eating fluffy, therefore I won’t eat any meat – load of none sense. It works for you, but it doesn’t mean it is correct. I can’t change my biology, nor can any other human. We are omnivores, plan and simple and we are healthiest when we eat a diet of an OMNIVORE. Brighid

03-13-2002, 10:46 AM	#143
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Koy: <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> You're my hero!

03-13-2002, 10:59 AM	#145
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Why are you surprised at the use of the health argument? We eat to live. Eating incorrectly advances death, promotes disease and one is generally unhealthy. You have said you didn’t make a decision to become a vegetarian based upon your health, but on your cat. And if we can be equally healthy, and you don’t protest those who have the ability to actually kill an animal – what’s the problem? Are you simply arguing against meat eaters who see as hypocritical because the thought of killing an animal may be uncomfortable to them? Are you arguing against eating meat at all? I think it’s great that you are following your personal convictions and because you don’t have the stomach to actually hunt and kill your own meat, you personally choose NOT to eat meat. However, this is NOT a good argument in support of the universal adoption of vegetarianism or even a good plea for it. And I am familiar with a lot of the data on both sides of the equation and in my personal experience vegetarians are no more or less healthy then those of us who also eat meat. Therefore, I see no compelling reason to stop eating meat in preference of a strictly vegetarian diet. Brighid

03-13-2002, 11:02 AM	#146
Bill Snedden Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,597	I find it strangely interesting that debates with rabid fundamentalists will often peter out after two or three pages, but threads on communism or vegetarianism keep going, and going, and going... Not only that, they can be much more acrimonious. (dons moderator hat) To all: The level of invective appears to be on the rise. Please remember that civility is requested and expected of all posters. This has been a gentle reminder. (moderator hat off) Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming... Regards, Bill Snedden

03-13-2002, 11:11 AM	#148
SallySmith Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 263	brighid, I hope you don't mind the paragraph replies because I hate big long posts with a bunch of quotes and replies. Re: the health argument, what surprises me is that people still think they can claim that a vegetarian diet is unhealthy. This is not true, as long as the vegetarian eats a balanced diet, which is true of meat-eaters as well. I'm not going to argue that you can't be healthy eating a diet that includes meat in limited quantities; I'm just going to argue that you don't need meat to be healthy. As far as the rest of it, you pretty much nailed it in terms of having a problem with the hypocritical meat-eaters. I don't like the thought of other people killing animals, but I just don't think the case can be made that it is immoral or unethical to do so, as long as it is done humanely. So no, I don't advance my argument as a universal reason to go vegetarian. I do think that environmental destruction would be a universal reason, though. Last but not least, I didn't stop eating meat "based upon my cat." My cat is what got me thinking about the whole thing. I stopped eating meat based upon the fact that I don't want to kill animals. I like them too much.

03-13-2002, 11:18 AM	#149
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	(wonders if it is a faux pas to mention that chicken noodle soup at lunch)

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