Jamie_L

Okay, I may be about to hijack this thread. But...

How is "I believe there is no god." different from "I don't believe a god exists." Those both sound like strong atheist statments to me.

The traditional "weak atheist" phrasing is "I lack a belief in god." I've argued elsewhere that I still think this distinction is silly.

I acknowledge that it's possible there could be a god out there. That doesn't change the fact that, based on available evidence, I don't believe there is a god (functionally the same as: I believe there is no God). Either you believe there's a god (theist), you believe there's not (atheist), or you aren't sure (agnostic).

Note to John76m: Sorry to digress. Good luck in your decision-making. Again, I urge you to consider your beliefs on their own merits, then decide how to blend them with those of the people you care about. Don't let others decide your beliefs for you simply because you like their company.

Jamie

seebs

One of them is a false belief if there is a God; the other is a true statement about lack of knowledge.

I don't, at this moment, believe there's a 1000 mile long stretch of freeway anywhere in the U.S. with no construction on it. If someone proves to me that there is, that's no major change.

By contrast, I believe there is not a 4,000 mile long stretch of freeway in the U.S. that never turns or changes direction. If someone proved to me that one existed, I would have to revise my belief system.

This is a really interesting question, which I could debate for hours. The question of what is, or isn't, a claim being made, is a very difficult one.

Strong agreement.

philechat

The problem is, seebs, that though there are verses that seem to represent religious tolerance in the Bible, I saw a lot of verses in the Bible that openly denounce other religions.

Does it seem strange that on the other hand, the Hindu religion (see the Bhagavad Gita) had Krishna said that "when devoted men sacrifice to other dieties with faith, they sacrifice to me, Arjuna, however aberrent the rites". The OT (and NT in a lesser extent)is full of examples of smashing the "idols" of the other faiths and God's punishment of pagans as well as prohibition of interfaith relationships. I do not see how the Bible teaches religious tolerance better than the other religions (Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist...etc)

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Goliath

Jamie_L

The distinction is simple: One who believes that no god exists makes a claim and holds a belief.

On the other hand, if one does not believe in the existence of a god, then one does not hold a belief about whether or not a god exists.

You're forgetting an option: mere lack of belief.

As an illustration, here is a complete and total list of beliefs that I hold regarding anything supernatural:

Nothing.

Sincerely,

Goliath

(edited to add second quote and comment on said quote)

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>

Goliath

seebs,

No problem.

Expected by whom? The tolerance that you show is certainly not what *I* expect from the average Christian.

Sincerely,

Goliath

liquid

A few points that have already probably been covered.... but so what?!

1) Going from non-belief to belief is rarer than going the other way, but I am sure every atheist knows you have a right to change your mind!

2) It does not sound to me that you actually *believe* in anything at all (after all, you mention no actual evidence, and that is what counts, as your head is probably telling you - it's just the attitude and worldview that are tempting you. After all, what is it about this woman that has convinced you of an omni-powerful bearded guy in the sky?

Very little I doubt - I just suspect that you love her, and as a result are starting to love what she thinks. It's not that weird, but you have to remember that you don't have to think the same as her to be valued by her.

And hre outlook on life might be appealing, but you don't have to join up to a club to take it.

I suppose I am just having a little bit of trouble wondering why you feel the need to fit her opinions to yours on the basis of liking her. She probably has quite a few little quirkc, but you don't copy them (I hope!).

3) On top of actually believing in some kind of god, do you actually accept any of the doctrines associated with religion? After all, it all comes with this trapping unless you just go and do something totally individual.

To be a catholic, you have to believe and follow certain edicts. You must take the pope as infallible. You must not use birth control. You must do confession. etc etc etc etc. Being part of a religion is not just some warm fuzzy thing of being loved. By their own rules, this is just not enough. If you aren't prepared for all this too, then you might as well not bother in the first place, because you'll be going to hell (or more likely purgatory being catholic) anyway.

seebs

There's this little-known text believed my many to contain advice on moral matters, which is generally felt to apply to Christians, and which denotes certain behaviors as expected or morally correct.

Among those behaviors are tolerance and respect. Yeah, there's stuff in the OT about knocking over idols, but in the NT, it's pretty clear that the unbelievers are welcome to have whatever little statues they want, as long as we aren't expected to believe in them.

I think the Bible would be a lot different if atheism had been more common when the NT was written; it really doesn't distinguish between people actively trying to coerce you to share their beliefs, and people merely not sharing yours.

Jayhawker Soule

Again, what, specifically, are you starting to believe, and why?

Goliath

And which also contains some horrible moral edicts (see below).

Ah, but you're forgetting things in the NT such as:

1. Jesus commanding people to hate themselves and their families before they follow him (I wonder what the "family values" people would have to say if GW Bush proclaimed that every American must hate themselves and their families if they wish to be patriotic?)

2. Jesus throwing hissy fits. The example that comes to mind is when Jesus supposedly cursed a fig tree because it wasn't producing fruit out of season. Apparently the Messiah needed a nap and a diaper change?

3. Commands to mutiliate onesself: specifically to lop off one's hands and rip out one's eyeballs. Quite disgusting.

There are, of course, many more examples.


Sincerely,

Goliath

seebs

Yup, and I think it's largely a question of how you interpret them, and how you take them in the larger context.

To take them in order, my interpretations are:

1. If you're into religion because it "makes you feel good", look elsewhere. Religion is not about the good things that happen to you, or your family; it's about doing the right thing even when it doesn't help you personally.

3. Ditto. (Oops, sorry, not taking them in order.)

2. I would take that as an allegory, for when people say "I will be kind to my neighbor last time, but I'm just not emotionally ready to stick up for him right now."