Baloo

There are many theists in this world who, if they were commanded to do so by the deity in which they believe, would end the life of another person. My question is for them: what would it take to convince you that your deity was commanding you to commit such an act?

BadBadBad

Al-Qaida members are quite clear on this. Perhaps we should ask them and educate the christians with their answer.

cpickett

I'm not a theist, but yet I do have urges to kill people who ask me stupid questions, and I've thought of blaming it on a God. Does that mean that God is actually talking to me, and I'm just misunderstanding?

I work in IT, so it may also just be that I get asked too manyt stupid questions.....

xian

This comes in two phases. In phase I, i will list my criteria for identification of a supernatural entity. In phase II, i will list my criteria to identify a supernatural entity as God.


1. The revelation must be external. no voices in my head or feelings.
2. The reveleation must demonstrate a clear violation of natural observances and apparent violation of natural law. This would preclude "signs" like seeing jesus's face in the shape of a cloud, or an arragement of rocks on the ground.
3. The perceived violation of natural law that must be extraordinary in its perception. This would preclude seeing a drop of blood being shed from a statue's eye (big deal- very hoaxable).
4. The perceived violation of natural law will be subject to scrutinization. This would preclude a magician like david copperfield performing an illusion that i can only see from one angle and cannot interact with.
5. The perceived violation of natural law will interact with me and speak to me in an audible voice or in such a way that I have never "heard" such a form of communication before. The entity will communicate with me, and I with the entity.
6. The "revelation" will interact with the natural world, leaving behind natural evidence.
7. People who are present will observe the same thing I am observing, eliminating the possibility of subjective illusion, since the event will occur in space and time. If I am alone, this would present a unique problem, since I need to empirically rule out subjective illusion. In this case, assuming that my mind is in the same state that it is now, the the perceived violation of natural law that I witness must be extraordinary, and I would need to have all 5 senses confirm its presence.

At this point I am convinced that I am communicating with a supernatural entity. (or at least a highly advanced alien being, but i would probably lean towards a supernatural entity if the demonstration of natural law violation was convincing enough, but phase II, if satisfied will rule out the possibility of an advanced alien)

Now Phase II: The identity of the entity

My initial response to the command "Kill" would be a finite evil entity (demon) rather than the Creator. I would hold this view with great fervency. I would vehemently deny that what I am seeing is God. I cannot stress this enough. My criteria that what I am seeing is GOD talking to me instead of a DEMON is much stricter than my criteria for concluding a supernatural entity is communicating with me. I would have no desire to obey the command.

Here is my criteria at this point to know if the entity is God.

1. The one communicating to me will answer questions that no human being on earth other than myself would know, thus eliminating a hoax. The one communicating to me will answer questions about thoughts in my head. He will even predict my thoughts seconds before I think them. He will demonstrate ability to control time and space- either by taking me into the past, or into the future.
2. If the one communicating to me is God, then I will have powerful feelings of certainty. This is important. Since my feelings are so overwhelmingly that this being would be evil...if this being was truly God, those feelings would change. If they remained, then I would not obey.
3. My desire to obey would exist. This desire would be 'created' by God and put in me.
4. I must re-emphasize....if I have so much as one shred of doubt about what I had, I will not obey. How to remove the doubt? points #5 and 6
5. One way to remove doubt is to teleport me into heaven, so i can see first hand what it is like. At all times, I will have feelings of comfort and joy. I will feel the feelings of "bliss"- with not so much as one single thought that this could be a trick. To put shortly, I will "know that I know that I know". Now, how can something like this be possible? How could it be possible for one to "know that he knows that he knows?" I have no idea. Yet thats darn well what better happen. And that is some serious criteria as far as I'm concerned, since I really dont KNOW anything.
6. If any doubt remains, or if the being has not done enough to satisfy my doubts as to his identity, then I will probably not obey. The God of the universe is fully capable of confirming his identity to a puny human being. In fact, I would expect that his identity would be confirmed in a way I cannot even think of. TO put simply, confirmation must be absolute, and beyond any doubt. Then I would obey.

BadBadBad

Xian,

Pretty good try. However, you're kind of bossy when it comes to God. Is that a good thing? You kind of seem to be bringing down God to your level. You seem to be limiting God. Christians have always told me I shouldn't do that.

Also, well, I'm just not getting it. How would all your criteria not lead you to the conclusion that it was really the IPU or Allah? They all seem to apply equally well.

Plus, what happened to your faith? If god were to come down from heaven and bless you like almost no other with his presence, aren't you a little afraid with your criteria, that you just might come to the wrong conclusion about god? Your criteria seem to be full of doubt. You seem to have such a strong pre-disposition that God would not ask you to kill, therefore you would require extraordinary proof that he is indeed God. Gosh that would probably come across as a little rude to God, don't you think? We seem to have a lot in common with respect to extraordinary proof. Are you sure you're not an atheist?

Let me quote you again:

"he will reveal himself to you in a way in which you are not expecting, yet will not negate the need for faith...or perhaps he already has but you missed it. "

Mageth

1. The revelation must be external. no voices in my head or feelings.
2. The reveleation must demonstrate a clear violation of natural observances and apparent violation of natural law. This would preclude "signs" like seeing jesus's face in the shape of a cloud, or an arragement of rocks on the ground.
3. The perceived violation of natural law that must be extraordinary in its perception. This would preclude seeing a drop of blood being shed from a statue's eye (big deal- very hoaxable).
4. The perceived violation of natural law will be subject to scrutinization. This would preclude a magician like david copperfield performing an illusion that i can only see from one angle and cannot interact with.
5. The perceived violation of natural law will interact with me and speak to me in an audible voice or in such a way that I have never "heard" such a form of communication before. The entity will communicate with me, and I with the entity.
6. The "revelation" will interact with the natural world, leaving behind natural evidence.
7. People who are present will observe the same thing I am observing, eliminating the possibility of subjective illusion, since the event will occur in space and time. If I am alone, this would present a unique problem, since I need to empirically rule out subjective illusion. In this case, assuming that my mind is in the same state that it is now, the the perceived violation of natural law that I witness must be extraordinary, and I would need to have all 5 senses confirm its presence.

How would these criteria, and your phase II criteria, work against biblical communciations such as the burning bush, the talking ass, the various dreams, still small voices in the night, and the voice out of the sky when Jesus was baptized by John?

Pyrrho

You, xion, appear to be much more careful about when you would trust that the being is "God" than most of those who are mentioned in the Bible. They at least appear to be much more willing to kill people because "God" says so than you are, though you admit that you are willing to kill on "God's" command:

My question for you is this: What makes you believe (if you believe) that the people in the Bible were really speaking with God? Let us suppose, just for the sake of argument, that the stories are not pure fiction, and further, that the people who killed on “God’s” command, were sincere in their beliefs, and not simply lying to get the various scribes to write falsehoods. And let us suppose even more, that they were not simply insane, but that something was really communicating with them (please note, these are each here simply supposed, for the sake of argument, though they would each really need to be examined before belief in the Biblical stories could be regarded as in any way reasonable). How could you know that they were not mistaken, and that they were not really commanded by some evil demon? When reading the stories in the Bible, in which “God” supposedly commands the killing of innocent children, why not suppose that they were mistaken, and that really the stories in the Bible are the work of the devil? If, after all, the devil were as evil as many have supposed, wouldn’t it be the very pinnacle of evil to convince everyone that he (or she or it or they; hereafter, “he” for the sake of simplicity of expression) was really God, and sucker people into founding churches in ‘his’ honor? When (if) you pray, and if someone is listening, how do you know it is not the devil who has been listening, and answering (if your prayers are “answered”)? And do you have such confidence in others that you suppose that all of them have been as cautious about such things as you are? Do you believe anyone when they say that “God” has communicated with them?

Mageth

The one communicating to me will answer questions about thoughts in my head. He will even predict my thoughts seconds before I think them.

I don't see this one as working too well. How would you distinguish such from your own thoughts? How would you know you were going to think something you hadn't thought yet, and thus know that god guessed right?

xian

did I miss something or is this thread about KILLING someone?

you take my quote out of context, and that is not good my friend.

It is one thing to believe in God, and believe that God is revealing himself to you in such a way as to take comfort in His existence....

it is quite another thing to receive a command from God not written in the Bible and then think that God is giving you that command.

please do not distort my words or my beliefs.

xian

easily....God says "now look in your pocket" to which I pull out an envelope. Then God says "think of something".....then I open the envelope and my thouths are written there.

in addition....he says "now turn around"...

I turn around to see that the face of a mountain has carved in it my thoughts that were written in the envelope. This is just one possible way.