God Head

Hello, i am a first time poster who came across this message board while researching for a college project. I have become intigued by this place, the people and the sentiments expressed. I would be interested in knowing what it is about your lack-of-belief or aversion to religion that makes you discuss it so much and so often. Now, im not judging, i am a practising Roman Catholic but i am in no way a fundamentalist. I dont want to convert anyone nor do i want to lambast anyone who doesnt believe. I am first and foremost a believer in God, but i dont revel in it. It is a personal thing, which i do not feel the need to broad cast to the world.

Why do you so actively participate in talking about something you don't believe in, why not talk about not believing in Santa either?

Liedts

There is variety of reason:
-While I have no problem with individuals believing in an higher being, I do have a problem with organized religion, because it was and is actively involved in most things evil on this planet.
-The other reason is that religion is by definition conservative and stands in the way of progress. In fact christianity has probably caused a set-back of about 500 years in scientific development. This is serious because many diseases could conceivably be cured, if this delay was not there. Also look to the third world countries and see what the stance of the church against birth control is causing there in the form of the pread of aids, and the uncontrolled population boom, with children being born in abyssimal poverty.
-Or look at the middle east were three sister religions are slashing it out.
-Or look at the sexual abuse scandals plaging the catholic church, and look at the incredible cover-up.
-Religion is the greatest lie of all times and totally irrational, and by the way, it is difficult to understand how after 2000 years of no reply , people are still praying and believing. This is worrying and means that religious people have a dangerous ability to close of at least part of their mind. This is a medical condition, and should be treated instead of encouraged.

Liedts

There is variety of reason:
-While I have no problem with individuals believing in an higher being, I do have a problem with organized religion, because it was and is actively involved in most things evil on this planet.
-The other reason is that religion is by definition conservative and stands in the way of progress. In fact christianity has probably caused a set-back of about 500 years in scientific development. This is serious because many diseases could conceivably be cured, if this delay was not there. Also look to the third world countries and see what the stance of the church against birth control is causing there in the form of the pread of aids, and the uncontrolled population boom, with children being born in abyssimal poverty.
-Or look at the middle east were three sister religions are slashing it out.
-Or look at the sexual abuse scandals plaging the catholic church, and look at the incredible cover-up.
-Religion is the greatest lie of all times and totally irrational, and by the way, it is difficult to understand how after 2000 years of no reply , people are still praying and believing. This is worrying and means that religious people have a dangerous ability to close of at least part of their mind. This is a medical condition, and should be treated instead of encouraged.
I quote for you an article from Times or Newsweek, wher talking about the medical condition of the pope, the vatican spokesman said that in the 2000 year recorded history there was no record of papal dementia. (well the church is of-course a reliable and unbiased record keeper) and then he said that clearly the providence is at work.
This only to show you the way these people are thinking. I mean it is more important for the providence to prevent papal dementia, than to prevent papal murders, perversion, greed , and icest, just to name a few of the papal "hobbies" over the ages.
Also, when the spokesman for the vatican was asked whther the cardinal of boston was going to resign or being sacked, he said no, but you will see, he will return a totally changed man. What are they going to do to him, something simple like a lobotomy?? That is not ncessary because clearly there is not much left in his head already.
Above only for the roman church since you said you are a roman catholic. I can write a similar thing about any organized religion or sect what's the difference, just different spin doctors. They should all be outlawed. All opium for the people. If somebody else wouldn't have said that already, I would.
By the way, if there is a god, organized religion is arguably the work of the devil

God Head

What about Islam? Many major scientific and mathematical advancements were made by Islamic scholars who's religion actively encourages the pursuit of scientific knowledge?

How could some one who doesn't pray possibly understand? You are not involved in the process.

Liedts

As a product of 12 years jezuit college, I can assure you, I was actively involved in the process of praying, and by the way, for what concerns islam, i can do the same write-up and that counts for any religion, but especially for the three abrahamic relgigions and sects around it.
By the way, apologies for my double posting but in haste to reply I have hit the wrong button.

God Head

Wouldn't banning organized religion be infinging on human rights? Surely a group of people can from an organisation any way they wish and without other people stopping them. Why not ban internet discussion groups while you're there?

Liedts

Well actually, of-course i don't want religion to be outlawed, but they sure over the times have asked for it, and still do today by their irresponsible behavior. But do we really have to accept all they do and say like that. Look at these faith healers. If what they do wouldn't be done under the guise of religion, they would long since have been arrested.
I mean, excesses in all aspects of live have to be controlled, and by the way, the definition of freedom is "the duty to repects somebody elses freedom", and religion has really not been good at this.

Automaton

Gee, you must have a pretty empty life if you don't find your beliefs and philosophy worth revelling in.

sighhswolf

Someone who doesnt pray now, probably arrived at that particular juncture precisely because they DID pray at one time in their lives.
You assume that because Atheists dont pray, they never did and have no knowledge of the so-called "power of prayer".
Try and understand that most atheists/non-theists
arrive at their convictions through organized religion.
They have found that the prayers they used to offer to god, and the prayers they offer to mickey
mouse are answered at about the same frequency rate.

Usually they are very well educated, have studied not just the christian form of worship but many
of the worlds mystery religions.
They have arrived at their non-belief because they
see that organized religion has for the most part
been not a help for mankind but a terrible affliction bringing war, death and destruction, oppression, bigotry, elitism and attrocities of all manner to the human condition.
Yes, being absolutely truthful, I personally would love to see a ban on religion, but rationally, I know, that is not going to happen.
I speak against it and I try in my own way to
get people to think about the effects of religious ferver on the human population.
There have been entire societies/cultures wiped out by the forced conversion to christianity.
Maybe you feel that your god has answered your prayers so you continue to offer them up to him/her/it.
But if your prayers have been answered, please explain why the prayers of starving children for food go unanswered, why people die from horrible
sickness who have prayed for relief and it has not happened, think why it is that one persons prayers seem to be answered to their satisfaction while the rest of the world suffers and dies.
What would make you or I different from anyone else? Does god answer everyone or does he pick and choose? And if he does favor one over another why?
Is it because some are more pious than others?
Or is it random selection?
No my friend, I see no reason in the chaos, and the bondage of organized religion.
I will however fight for your right to worship
as you please, I may not agree with christian doctrine and personally would like it to cease to exist, but your freedom to worship is not to be taken lightly or ignored.
Wolf

brighid

God Head,

I don’t think “revel” is really an appropriate term to describe our expression of atheism or why we come here and discuss a wide variety of topics, religion and the existence of god being among those. Atheists are a minority through out this world and we come here to find people who hold common views. We enjoy discussion and debate more so then the average person. II provides a place where we can research topics, explore the questions we have and refine our views. Some come here on the fringes of doubt, searching for answers to many questions and here they have a place to hash those ideas out and hopefully come to educated conclusions that abide by the callings of the conscience. Many theists, such as yourself come here to ask questions, to witness or to badger our beliefs sometimes and from this many discussions are started.

Currently, religious discussions and the civil rights that are violated by current religious movements are very relevant to many of our lives. Even though we do not believe in gods and because most of us are directly affected by the Abrahamic faiths we discuss those most. We feel it is important to fight for the freedoms of all human beings, not just atheists and right now many people are being violated by a specific religion (generally the one they don’t belong to) and we find that unacceptable in a civilized society.

Also, there really is little use discussing the finer points of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny because few people retain those fantastical beliefs into adulthood, nor do those beings have dogmas, traditions and rules associated with thought and behavior attached to believing in their existence. Nor am I aware of any person losing their life, liberty or ability to pursue personal happiness because others believed in SC or the EB. This is not the case with religion.

I doubt you will find many atheists who desire the complete suppression or destruction of religion, nor do we desire that people be forced to illegally practice their faith or otherwise relinquish their freedoms. We are against such things. However, we do desire that religion remain a private matter only and specifically that religion keep it’s notions out of the public schools, science and other relevant areas where one religion has no business forcing it’s views upon others.

As to Islam, it was a force in the development of early science, but since it has become more radical and controlling Islam and many Muslim nations remain in the Dark Ages specifically because of their faith in Allah. Present day Islam is just as much of a danger to the progress of science and the advancement of human intelligence as Christianity.

Finally, most of us have been former theists. Many have been devout, have received theological educations, have been preachers, or in many cases victims of the abusive nature of some faiths and desire to heal our psychological wounds inflicted upon us by religious zealots, others are devout supporters of freedom and democracy (although not necessarily capitalism) and II is a natural place for us to congregate.

So please eliminate the idea from your thinking that we are somehow preoccupied or obsessed with religion because somewhere, deep down inside we “know” there is a God or any other malarkey you may have been taught about the atheist, agnostic, skeptic and free thinkers of the world. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are a passionate bunch, but the difference between this forum and other forums is the freedom you will experience in discussing your views. You will not be banned here for posting dissenting opinions, as so many of have in theist forums. You will also find that although we vehemently disagree with your belief in a deity, we will be the 1st to defend your right to believe and worship as you wish.


Brighid

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>