Freethought & Rationalism Archive

abe smith · 03-25-2003, 07:53 AM

( Please remind Amos that he & I are carefully not addressing each other.) Sorry it's taken me so long to connect to this thread.
In response to Amos's categorical statement of 07 march, that "Catholic" beliefs, dogmata etc are "revealed by God" and that's why Catholics believe all-those......
I will counter,to the members here, that ALL "RELIGIOUS" beliefs, dogmata, laws, what-have-you (=matters not subject to experiential testing and/or substantiation) are MAN-MADE. It is possible to *assert* anything you damned please; and so, so-much for "religious truth". This fact is a major reason why here in the USofA all that stuff is deliberately placed outside the perimeter of secular (= MAN-MADE!) law. "Religious truths" = fictions, are not & ought not to be subject to (human) legislation.
Because as some of us believe, ALL those are fantasies.

Biff the unclean · 03-25-2003, 09:33 AM

Ipetrich:Personally, I think that Fiach is going off the deep end about the Xianity-Mithraism relationship. The details are too different:
Personally, based on my own research over the past 30 years I'd say he is right on the money. You must keep in mind that nobody is claiming that Christianity is taken solely from Mithraism. It is a hodge podge lifted from several Hellenistic and Celtic and Egyptian religions. Mithraism is a major, major, source. But by no means the only one.

Mithraism was male-only with seven levels of initiation, one for each "planet", while even early Xianity had both sexes of members and lacked such levels of initiation.
The initiation is through baptism which comes from the Magi based religions. Once in the "flock"(Mithrain term) is presented with a structure that is Dionysusian (coed) while the clergy is structured exactly as the Mithraian chaplain's corps of the Roman Army, form the Pope down to the lay brothers. Even their uniforms are exactly the same with the exception that the "sword of truth" on the priests backs having the point removed and becoming a cross, and the hat being discarded.
You'll notice that there are no women clergy. The "Handmaidens of the goddess Vesta" (Vestal Virgins), by order of the Emperor, were transferred to the church in a support capacity (Nuns)
Though the comment about someone being "caught up in the third heaven" (I Corinthians 12:2-4) may be a vestige of something like that.
The layers of heaven and those of hell, so vividly depicted by Dante, are Mithrain/Zoroasterian.

Mithraism was officially secret, without any sacred books,
Secret yes, but the sacred book is called the Zend Avesta. It should be noted that until the sixteenth century the bible was forbidden to common people.
while Xianity was public from the beginning, sacred books and all. However, parts of the Gospels referring to teachings to be kept secret may be vestiges of such secrecy.
Depends on whose story you are listening to. It was a secret underground cult with magic signs and pass words if you listen to the Catholics.

I don't want to start a flame war, but I think that the Mithraism-Xianity similarities are overstated
The Dionysusians were civil about it but the Mithrains never stopped bitching that Christianity was a bastardized version of their own religion until they were wiped out by the Moslems. It was also a major complaint of the first Protestants. Even in the French Revolution the revolutionaries who were revolting against both church and state wore Phrygian caps to mock the Mithraism in Catholicism. The Pope had little to say about that. Considering that the title "Pope" is Mithrain. That he wore the Mithrain Pope's robes, the Mithrain Pope's double crown, carried the Mithrain Pope's crook (Mithra was known as "the good shepherd") sat on the stone throne of Saint Peter (replaced in the 1600's) that was decorated with a carving of Mithra Tauroctonus and that in the sub basement of the Vatican is the largest Mithric temple which was given by the formerly Mithrian Emperor to the Christians.

If you are at the San Francisco main library anytime soon take out The Mysteries of Mithra by Franz Cumont. It's an older book but recently updated. Cumont was a devout Catholic and a fair percentage of the book is devoted to why Mithraism is false and Catholicism true even though the two are such close matches. I would have missed many of the similarities if he hadn't stopped to say that they weren't there. His reasoning runs along the line that even though Mithraism is so much older of the two it is a myth and Christianity a fact. Early church fathers like Martyr explain the duplications as being the work of the devil.

Biff the unclean · 03-25-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Oh DUH!

They don't need to, and when you learn that 80% of the world is smarter and wiser than you think, you'll stop peddling this rhetorical, inane crap. (I hope).

Rad

And if I swore up and down to you, on a stack of comics that Superman was real? And that you HAD to have faith in him or suffer a terrible fate from Kryptonite you would think I was being stupid.
And how do you know that Superman isn't real? You can't be everywhere to see if Superman was there. You'd have to be Superman to do a thing like that.

But you DO know that Superman isn't real. You know because he has superpowers. He does things that are impossible. I can't produce Superman or anyone who has ever seen Superman. All I've got is a book.

With the exception that your bible probably has a better binding than my graphic novel you claim is exactly the same as a claim for Superman.

The only one being inane is you. Super Jew, a mild mannered carpenter, able to ascend the heaven in a single bound is just plain ludicrous. It's time to put your comics away and face the real world.

Spaz · 03-25-2003, 12:57 PM

But superman's far better, it has pictures

Fiach · 03-25-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Radorth
Oh DUH!

They don't need to, and when you learn that 80% of the world is smarter and wiser than you think, you'll stop peddling this rhetorical, inane crap. (I hope).

80% of the world being smarter is from which point of view. If Christians are 30% of the world than 70% are smarter, if Christians are 20%, then 80% are indeed smarter.

But there is a falacy here. That is many fundies do not include all Christians in the Christian label. Most Christians in world statistics are Roman Catholics, there are Orthodox, and Protestants also not acceptable to Fundies (Evangelicals, fundamentalists, Pentacostals/Holy Rollers.)

But what percentage of "Christians" are actually fundies?

http://atheismawareness.home.att.net..._evolution.htm

That link shows that 87% of people accept evolution, that means that 13% may be true fundamentalists. But many of those are Muslim Fundamentalist who like their Christian twin brothers are scriptural literalists. If half of fundies are Islamic then 6.5% are Chrsitian fundies.

Either way, 87% of the population of the world is smarter than the coalition of Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists.

I post this in jest because I reject the simple minded idea that the correct idea is the one with the most members. That is invalid. And fundies should not use that argument because being 6.5 to 13% of the world is no election victory....well maybe in Florida.

Fiach

Radorth · 03-25-2003, 07:18 PM

Well I'm glad you got all that off your chest, but you missed the point. 80% of the world is smarter than YOU think they are. They know the difference between a myth and a historical character. They don't need your inane instructions and rhetorical questions for guidance. Get it now?

Rad

Fiach · 03-25-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Well I'm glad you got all that off your chest, but you missed the point. 80% of the world is smarter than YOU think they are. They know the difference between a myth and a historical character. They don't need your inane instructions and rhetorical questions for guidance. Get it now?

Rad

Did I misunderstand your post? I admit I puzzled over what it was about for a while.

80% of the world is smarter than YOU think they are.

I am actually happy about that. It means that there are also more rationalists than I might have guessed.

They know the difference between a myth and a historical character.

I know that all Atheists and agnostics (maybe 25% of the world) know that difference. Among those who have gods, it is a heterogeneous mix. 900,000,000 Hindus who are not Atheists know the difference but they have different gods as "historical" figures than Islamo-Christians.

They don't need your inane instructions and rhetorical questions for guidance. Get it now?

I agree with you. I can lecture them on mathematics, physics, biochemistry, biology, evolutionary biology, and biological neurobehaviour. But most are incapable of understanding the concepts, they need simplistic stories as our tribal ancestors did. I have no delusions that I can convert theists. Theists like Dan Barker, only convert to atheism when they think for themselves and critically analyse and cross examine their scriptures. It has to be their own brain processing and coming to rational conclusions. I cannot in brief posts, do that. Many cling to superstition because of its comforting effect, and will deny 2+2=4 if scripture says 2+2=7. I point it out and it just makes them defensive if not hostile as you just demonstrated. All I can do is stimultate thinking. And that is my goal, to make you THINK. Don't accept something because I say it, THINK, and investigate contrary views of all types to your cult belief.

Fiach

Radorth · 03-25-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

I am actually happy about that. It means that there are also more rationalists than I might have guessed.

Er, well, not really, unless you want to call a small fringe group of Jesus-mythers "rationalists." Most people would call them irrational after listening to their "evidence" for five minutes. After ten minutes, I think less complimentary terms might be used. After hearing the Fourteenth Jesus Myther Conspiracy Theory, and being told to read approx 20 pages for each of 75 assertions, the Gospels start to look like proven fact.

Do keep it up. Durant did a lot of damage.

Rad

Biff the unclean · 03-25-2003, 10:00 PM

Okay then Rad, why do the stories that make up the life of Jesus match earlier storys that are known myths?
What explaination do you suggest for why there are no letters like the one I wrote about meeting a zombie on Good Friday?
Why are talking animals and super heros a sure sign that a book is fictional for every book ... but yours?:banghead:

Yellum Notnef · 03-25-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Do keep it up. Durant did a lot of damage.

Apparently not enough since you're still jabbering on about Jesus being a god.

I don't understand your love affair with Durant. So what if he thought the Jeez was a real guy? The majority of people in a culture saturated with Christianity have opted for the safe historical Jesus position.
But at the end of the day your idol Durant is still in Hell with an "undying thirst" isn't he?

03-25-2003, 07:53 AM	#251
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	re AMOS's post of March 7 @ this thread. ( Please remind Amos that he & I are carefully not addressing each other.) Sorry it's taken me so long to connect to this thread. In response to Amos's categorical statement of 07 march, that "Catholic" beliefs, dogmata etc are "revealed by God" and that's why Catholics believe all-those...... I will counter,to the members here, that ALL "RELIGIOUS" beliefs, dogmata, laws, what-have-you (=matters not subject to experiential testing and/or substantiation) are MAN-MADE. It is possible to assert anything you damned please; and so, so-much for "religious truth". This fact is a major reason why here in the USofA all that stuff is deliberately placed outside the perimeter of secular (= MAN-MADE!) law. "Religious truths" = fictions, are not & ought not to be subject to (human) legislation. Because as some of us believe, ALL those are fantasies.

03-25-2003, 07:12 PM	#255
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	Is it a numbers game. Originally posted by Radorth Oh DUH! They don't need to, and when you learn that 80% of the world is smarter and wiser than you think, you'll stop peddling this rhetorical, inane crap. (I hope). 80% of the world being smarter is from which point of view. If Christians are 30% of the world than 70% are smarter, if Christians are 20%, then 80% are indeed smarter. But there is a falacy here. That is many fundies do not include all Christians in the Christian label. Most Christians in world statistics are Roman Catholics, there are Orthodox, and Protestants also not acceptable to Fundies (Evangelicals, fundamentalists, Pentacostals/Holy Rollers.) But what percentage of "Christians" are actually fundies? http://atheismawareness.home.att.net..._evolution.htm That link shows that 87% of people accept evolution, that means that 13% may be true fundamentalists. But many of those are Muslim Fundamentalist who like their Christian twin brothers are scriptural literalists. If half of fundies are Islamic then 6.5% are Chrsitian fundies. Either way, 87% of the population of the world is smarter than the coalition of Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists. I post this in jest because I reject the simple minded idea that the correct idea is the one with the most members. That is invalid. And fundies should not use that argument because being 6.5 to 13% of the world is no election victory....well maybe in Florida. Fiach

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03-25-2003, 09:33 AM	#252
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Ipetrich:Personally, I think that Fiach is going off the deep end about the Xianity-Mithraism relationship. The details are too different: Personally, based on my own research over the past 30 years I'd say he is right on the money. You must keep in mind that nobody is claiming that Christianity is taken solely from Mithraism. It is a hodge podge lifted from several Hellenistic and Celtic and Egyptian religions. Mithraism is a major, major, source. But by no means the only one. Mithraism was male-only with seven levels of initiation, one for each "planet", while even early Xianity had both sexes of members and lacked such levels of initiation. The initiation is through baptism which comes from the Magi based religions. Once in the "flock"(Mithrain term) is presented with a structure that is Dionysusian (coed) while the clergy is structured exactly as the Mithraian chaplain's corps of the Roman Army, form the Pope down to the lay brothers. Even their uniforms are exactly the same with the exception that the "sword of truth" on the priests backs having the point removed and becoming a cross, and the hat being discarded. You'll notice that there are no women clergy. The "Handmaidens of the goddess Vesta" (Vestal Virgins), by order of the Emperor, were transferred to the church in a support capacity (Nuns) Though the comment about someone being "caught up in the third heaven" (I Corinthians 12:2-4) may be a vestige of something like that. The layers of heaven and those of hell, so vividly depicted by Dante, are Mithrain/Zoroasterian. Mithraism was officially secret, without any sacred books, Secret yes, but the sacred book is called the Zend Avesta. It should be noted that until the sixteenth century the bible was forbidden to common people. while Xianity was public from the beginning, sacred books and all. However, parts of the Gospels referring to teachings to be kept secret may be vestiges of such secrecy. Depends on whose story you are listening to. It was a secret underground cult with magic signs and pass words if you listen to the Catholics. I don't want to start a flame war, but I think that the Mithraism-Xianity similarities are overstated The Dionysusians were civil about it but the Mithrains never stopped bitching that Christianity was a bastardized version of their own religion until they were wiped out by the Moslems. It was also a major complaint of the first Protestants. Even in the French Revolution the revolutionaries who were revolting against both church and state wore Phrygian caps to mock the Mithraism in Catholicism. The Pope had little to say about that. Considering that the title "Pope" is Mithrain. That he wore the Mithrain Pope's robes, the Mithrain Pope's double crown, carried the Mithrain Pope's crook (Mithra was known as "the good shepherd") sat on the stone throne of Saint Peter (replaced in the 1600's) that was decorated with a carving of Mithra Tauroctonus and that in the sub basement of the Vatican is the largest Mithric temple which was given by the formerly Mithrian Emperor to the Christians. If you are at the San Francisco main library anytime soon take out The Mysteries of Mithra by Franz Cumont. It's an older book but recently updated. Cumont was a devout Catholic and a fair percentage of the book is devoted to why Mithraism is false and Catholicism true even though the two are such close matches. I would have missed many of the similarities if he hadn't stopped to say that they weren't there. His reasoning runs along the line that even though Mithraism is so much older of the two it is a myth and Christianity a fact. Early church fathers like Martyr explain the duplications as being the work of the devil.

03-25-2003, 12:57 PM	#254
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	But superman's far better, it has pictures

03-25-2003, 07:18 PM	#256
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Well I'm glad you got all that off your chest, but you missed the point. 80% of the world is smarter than YOU think they are. They know the difference between a myth and a historical character. They don't need your inane instructions and rhetorical questions for guidance. Get it now? Rad

03-25-2003, 10:00 PM	#259
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Okay then Rad, why do the stories that make up the life of Jesus match earlier storys that are known myths? What explaination do you suggest for why there are no letters like the one I wrote about meeting a zombie on Good Friday? Why are talking animals and super heros a sure sign that a book is fictional for every book ... but yours?:banghead:

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