Zippy

Hi everyone,

All of this fuss lately about the Ten Commandments monuments in courthouses has set me thinking.

The primary defence of many of the Christians responsible is that the commandments form a historical document, and that they were instrumental in the formation of US law. But is that true?

I am by no means a legal expert - which is why this question is being posed - but I thought that US law simply branched away from UK law, which had nothing to do with the ten commandments. British law has come straight down to us from Roman law. I don't see how they can claim that the 10 commandments are anything to do with the law of the land (laws against murder, adultery and theft et al were in place long before the old testament).

Could anyone please shed any light on this issue? Is there any validity to these claims whatsoever?

Cheers,

Paul

PS: First post, hello.

SanDiegoAtheist

The short answer is 'no' - there is no actual connection of the Ten Commandments to the US legal code in any real way. In point of fact, over half of the Commandments would be outright violations of the First Amendment (of course, Christians tend to ignore the First Amendment - or 'reinterpret' it - unless it's speech or conduct which they approve of.)

However, I've seen many Christians claim that ALL law is descended from the Ten Commandments - basically, that every culture's laws are in some way derivative of their silly superstition - including Roman, and through Roman, English Common Law, and thence the US legal system.

Of course, they can't PROVE any of this, but since when has that bothered Christians?

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

Godless Dave

I don't think that's entirely true. British law is different from Roman law, and IIRC comes from Germanic common law which predates the Roman conquest of Europe and Britain. The concepts of sworn witnesses and jury trials come from that tradition*. France, Spain, Italy, and many other European countries have legal systems based on Roman law (and the Napoleonic Code), which are quite different from US and UK law. But either way you're right - Roman law did not come from the 10 commandments, and neither did English common law. It's no more than a flat-out lie from the religious right.

* I got this from Cantor's Civilization of the Middle Ages.

tragic_pizza

Hi SciGuy.

You've included rather a sweeping generality or two, eh?

Question, not argument: which Commandments violate the First Amendment?

The Other Michael

Doesn't the Code of Hammurabi predate the 10Cs?

cheers,
Michael

hezekiah jones

Hi zippy.

I have never read a statute that begins with, "Thou shalt not ..." In fact most if not all of our laws presuppose that they will be broken and in fact consist mostly of definitions and penalties.

What our laws say is essentially, "If you're going to kill someone, or rip someone off, or whatever, according to the following definitions, here is the fine/time you can reasonably expect to pay/serve," and so on.

None of our laws derive from any supernatural authority. In fact the U.S. Constitution begins with the phrase, "We the people." So the construction of the legal system and the enforcement of penalties is derived from a reasonable consensus of opinion within our society. I think one would be hard pressed to find a system of government more devoted to secularism than is the United States.

As for the generally accepted "commandments" themselves:

All of the above is clearly contrary to the Bill of Rights, which forbids both laws respecting the establishments of religion and those prohibiting its free exercise, enshrines nearly unlimited freedom of speech, and so on.

All I can say is that the local Pick 'n' Save here is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, including Christmas.

It's actually a violation of the Constitution to teach "creation science" in the public schools here.

Well, you can even sue your father and mother in America. I can't imagine anything that would "honor" them less.

Duh.

Hell, they couldn't even convict the President on that one.

Again, duh.

Actually, I kind of like this one. See "creation science" above. If this commandment was enforced, all the "creation scientists" would be behind bars.

I submit that the activity of "coveting" forms the basis of the American Way; certainly its economic system. We call it "Keeping up with the Joneses."

Anyway these are just my own flippant comments. There are many, many excellent resources in the infidels library at the top of this page.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: hezekiahjones ]</p>

hezekiah jones

By the way zippy you can find the latest state-of-the-ark legal advice from the wacky world of conservative christianity at Mat Staver's Liberty Counsel:

<a href="http://www.lc.org/index.html" target="_blank">Liberty Counsel</a>

Somewhere at his site he's posted a rather extensive legal brief in .pdf format in defense of the ten commandments which I can't find at the moment. Most of his citations predate the Constitution by a hundred years or so, which establishes the fact that many early settlers were aware that the Bible existed. But I think as a strictly legal argument it's largely irrelevant.

PopeInTheWoods

Well for starters, if the First Commandment ("no other gods") were a law, practicing Hinduism would be illegal. That would seem to conflict with the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment. That pretty much disqualifies the Ten Commandments for me, but we can work with hj's post above if you want more.

Andy

tragic_pizza

Point taken. Thanks.

SanDiegoAtheist

Yes, and I believe Sargon of Akkad had a well-defined legal code which predates both. Of course, it's hard to pin down when the 10C's were actually handed out...I believe orthodox Judaism would say about 14th century BCE.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist