Freethought & Rationalism Archive

brighid · 05-28-2003, 05:24 AM

Megusic,

I have asked myself many of the same questions you are. I am the mother of one beautiful, 9 year-old son. I can honestly say that I love being his mother. I wouldn't change that for anything in this world. Parenting is a rich, rewarding, challenging experience like no other. However, pregnancy and I aren't ... shall we say ... close friends. It was horrible and amazing. Labor and delivery was a nightmare that I am terrified of repeating. I received extensive bodily damage and nearly lost my life. Yet, I am contemplating it again 10 + years later.

I do agree that the medical establishment does not even begin to prepare women for the myriad possibilities of pregnancy. At least 10 years ago they didn't. I know much more now and I am thankful for the Internet as a research resource. It would have helped tremendously back then. I did not understand what was going on with my body. No one could make the vomitting (24 hours a day for 7 months) stop, or even tell me why I was puking all the time. I was never actually told by my doctor what took place in the delivery room and what I know is from my mother who was a critical care nurse at the time.

If or when you decide to become pregnant educate yourself. Interview doctors well ahead of time, as well as hospitals, birthing centers, midwives, doulas, etc. No one can predict everything that will actually happen during pregnancy, labor and delivery, but one can certainly be well prepared for the possibilities. If would strongly recommend an OBGYN/midwife team, and if you can afford it a doula as well. The support of knowledgeable women focused on your health and well being, and that of your child is invaluable. If we can get pregnant I already have doctors, midwives, and doulas lined up for interviews. I will never go into pregnancy ill informed again.

I don't know if having children is selfish. I suppose in some cases that is true. I am not sure if selfish motivations are always immoral though.

The experience of carrying a child to term is one that must be experienced to be understood and fully appreciated. It comes with it's risks, but at least in the developed world we have it better off then our African, Indian, Afghani (etc.) sisters.

Adoption can also be equally rewarding and wonderful. It is more expensive then having one of your own, and it may take two or three times longer to acquire a child. However, there are so many children without homes living in institutions that desire nothing more then a family to love them. We are also considering adoption either instead of having a child of our own, or in addition to having a child. If we had the money I would adopt multiple children. My husband tells me I should stay away from adoption sites until we have the money to adopt because it makes me sad that we are unable to help all those children.

Ultimately, this choice can only be made by you and your partner, or maybe just you if you chose to parent without a partner. Single parents are able to adopt and single family households make fine families.

I once had a dream that I was pregnant as well and it felt very real. I too woke up and felt my stomach, sure I was pregnant. I couldn't have been at the time ... but 6 months later I was and 9 months after that I had my son!

Brighid

All you can do is research your options and make your decision from there - eventually.

abe smith · 05-28-2003, 07:38 AM

Megusic, dear (I infer that you probably are a "female").... based on my own very-limited private experience, that AllThat may only "work" if you're romantically "in-love' w/ a guy(even a fantasy guy whom you've never met), and you really want to connect to him , faute d'autre, by having a kid for him.
This opinion of mine may not be generally applicable...

As a somewhat superannuated Biologist (so oldfashioned, to label oneself a generalist!) I opine also that wanting to perpetuate *one's own* DNA is probably not a rational motive. Indeed, it doesn't whiff quite right to me. It might be a major reason for a MALE to want to have a kid; but umm... I don't think FEMALES think like that. I can't explain/justify my position... Females KNOW they are biologically-perfect and don't need to strive for that sort of perfection.

In any case, [allied to the ineluctable fact that ultimately, human life on this planet, like ALL life on this planet, is doomed to be destroyed & to disappear w/o a trace -- in only another billion years or even much less} my academic percept is, that your PERSONAL genes will probably be extinguished from the gene pool (like Mozart's, Jesus's, George washington's, the Bachs's.... whoever] within um, maybe 10 generations, max. Hence, *having kids* to try to keep a hold on immortality is probably a forlorn hope.
I am of course as always willing to hear opposition to this thought.... Abe
Any human female's burning desire to have a child is probably largely neurophysiological; and abetted by lots of social stuff about measuring-up and competition w/ others & all that.... So much for this. Abe

Daleth · 05-28-2003, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Females KNOW they are biologically-perfect and don't need to strive for that sort of perfection.

Hee hee! Abe, I just thought that was adorable and couldn't stop myself from replying to say so.

Damn, but I wish my bad eyes and dying knees knew I was biologically perfect.

Quote:

Any human female's burning desire to have a child is probably largely neurophysiological; and abetted by lots of social stuff about measuring-up and competition w/ others & all that

This is a popular opinion. I don't undertand why. It's not considered neurophysiological if I have a burning desire to climb a mountain or run for office or play guitar. I don't understand why there would be this one element of my person which can't also just be a part of me, something I want. Somehow I can know myself EXCEPT when it comes to this, and then I'm merely a slave to biology.

Ah, a conversation for another day, I suppose. It's just something that makes me go hmmmm every time I hear it.

Dal

Calzaer · 05-28-2003, 09:33 AM

It seems to me that, from a rational perspective, adopting a kid and giving birth to a kid are nearly identical in terms of outcome (at least, I hope so, having given a child to an adoptive couple). The difference is, humans have a vested, evolutionary interest in spreading their own genes around.

So, logically, there's no reason to have kids as there are enough unwanted ones to go around (more than enough!). But the emotional response to "Having" a child is such a strong pressure resulting from millions of years of evolution, I doubt simple logic could ever overcome that drive.

And if we DID overcome that drive, we'd die out when the orphanages went out of business. So it's not a bad thing, really.

Pyrrho · 05-28-2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
It seems to me that, from a rational perspective, adopting a kid and giving birth to a kid are nearly identical in terms of outcome (at least, I hope so, having given a child to an adoptive couple). The difference is, humans have a vested, evolutionary interest in spreading their own genes around.

So, logically, there's no reason to have kids as there are enough unwanted ones to go around (more than enough!). But the emotional response to "Having" a child is such a strong pressure resulting from millions of years of evolution, I doubt simple logic could ever overcome that drive.

And if we DID overcome that drive, we'd die out when the orphanages went out of business. So it's not a bad thing, really.

First of all, some people are more logical than others, and it shows in their behavior. Second, it would be a very good thing if more people were logical, as the result of producing an ever-larger population on a finite planet can only have very disastrous consequences.

05-28-2003, 05:24 AM	#11
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	My personal thoughts Megusic, I have asked myself many of the same questions you are. I am the mother of one beautiful, 9 year-old son. I can honestly say that I love being his mother. I wouldn't change that for anything in this world. Parenting is a rich, rewarding, challenging experience like no other. However, pregnancy and I aren't ... shall we say ... close friends. It was horrible and amazing. Labor and delivery was a nightmare that I am terrified of repeating. I received extensive bodily damage and nearly lost my life. Yet, I am contemplating it again 10 + years later. I do agree that the medical establishment does not even begin to prepare women for the myriad possibilities of pregnancy. At least 10 years ago they didn't. I know much more now and I am thankful for the Internet as a research resource. It would have helped tremendously back then. I did not understand what was going on with my body. No one could make the vomitting (24 hours a day for 7 months) stop, or even tell me why I was puking all the time. I was never actually told by my doctor what took place in the delivery room and what I know is from my mother who was a critical care nurse at the time. If or when you decide to become pregnant educate yourself. Interview doctors well ahead of time, as well as hospitals, birthing centers, midwives, doulas, etc. No one can predict everything that will actually happen during pregnancy, labor and delivery, but one can certainly be well prepared for the possibilities. If would strongly recommend an OBGYN/midwife team, and if you can afford it a doula as well. The support of knowledgeable women focused on your health and well being, and that of your child is invaluable. If we can get pregnant I already have doctors, midwives, and doulas lined up for interviews. I will never go into pregnancy ill informed again. I don't know if having children is selfish. I suppose in some cases that is true. I am not sure if selfish motivations are always immoral though. The experience of carrying a child to term is one that must be experienced to be understood and fully appreciated. It comes with it's risks, but at least in the developed world we have it better off then our African, Indian, Afghani (etc.) sisters. Adoption can also be equally rewarding and wonderful. It is more expensive then having one of your own, and it may take two or three times longer to acquire a child. However, there are so many children without homes living in institutions that desire nothing more then a family to love them. We are also considering adoption either instead of having a child of our own, or in addition to having a child. If we had the money I would adopt multiple children. My husband tells me I should stay away from adoption sites until we have the money to adopt because it makes me sad that we are unable to help all those children. Ultimately, this choice can only be made by you and your partner, or maybe just you if you chose to parent without a partner. Single parents are able to adopt and single family households make fine families. I once had a dream that I was pregnant as well and it felt very real. I too woke up and felt my stomach, sure I was pregnant. I couldn't have been at the time ... but 6 months later I was and 9 months after that I had my son! Brighid All you can do is research your options and make your decision from there - eventually.

05-28-2003, 07:38 AM	#12
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	My Impression Izz... Megusic, dear (I infer that you probably are a "female").... based on my own very-limited private experience, that AllThat may only "work" if you're romantically "in-love' w/ a guy(even a fantasy guy whom you've never met), and you really want to connect to him , faute d'autre, by having a kid for him. This opinion of mine may not be generally applicable... As a somewhat superannuated Biologist (so oldfashioned, to label oneself a generalist!) I opine also that wanting to perpetuate one's own DNA is probably not a rational motive. Indeed, it doesn't whiff quite right to me. It might be a major reason for a MALE to want to have a kid; but umm... I don't think FEMALES think like that. I can't explain/justify my position... Females KNOW they are biologically-perfect and don't need to strive for that sort of perfection. In any case, [allied to the ineluctable fact that ultimately, human life on this planet, like ALL life on this planet, is doomed to be destroyed & to disappear w/o a trace -- in only another billion years or even much less} my academic percept is, that your PERSONAL genes will probably be extinguished from the gene pool (like Mozart's, Jesus's, George washington's, the Bachs's.... whoever] within um, maybe 10 generations, max. Hence, having kids to try to keep a hold on immortality is probably a forlorn hope. I am of course as always willing to hear opposition to this thought.... Abe Any human female's burning desire to have a child is probably largely neurophysiological; and abetted by lots of social stuff about measuring-up and competition w/ others & all that.... So much for this. Abe

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05-28-2003, 09:33 AM	#14
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	It seems to me that, from a rational perspective, adopting a kid and giving birth to a kid are nearly identical in terms of outcome (at least, I hope so, having given a child to an adoptive couple). The difference is, humans have a vested, evolutionary interest in spreading their own genes around. So, logically, there's no reason to have kids as there are enough unwanted ones to go around (more than enough!). But the emotional response to "Having" a child is such a strong pressure resulting from millions of years of evolution, I doubt simple logic could ever overcome that drive. And if we DID overcome that drive, we'd die out when the orphanages went out of business. So it's not a bad thing, really.

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