Freethought & Rationalism Archive

03-08-2002, 02:11 PM

For sure Ivan and I just threw it out as a rather useless point.

It takes courage to walk away from religious indoctrination because often much is invested in this and so naturally the more is invested (such as education and many years of devotion) the more courage it will take.

Opposite this is the amount of courage it takes to stick with it to the end and let someone else be in charge of your destiny to the bitter end.

I do have an opinion as to why religion thrives in America and that is more towards the negative side of religion. You may have noticed that I do not agree with the evangelistic side of religion which is so effective for them because of the whitcraft they employ to spread the good news. While this may not be the only cause it sure is a contributing factor.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

sullster · 03-08-2002, 02:23 PM

Why are Europeans less religious than the US? I think Nietzsche had it right when he wrote back in the 1880's that "God is Dead". The European intellectual classes had broken with theism totally and finally. Thus ending many centuries of infatuation with the christian myth.
Yet, Nietzsche accurately warned that,"Mankind will go insane when he realizes that god is dead". The period of insanity raged in 20th century Europe with WW1 and 2, communism and naziism, deluded nationalism and finally tribal killings in the former Yugoslavia.
Europeans have no more illusions and are done with all fantasies, religious or philosophical.
Us Americans still have our illusions. Americans still don't know that god is long dead.

Sephiroth · 03-08-2002, 08:33 PM

Given how people always like to bring up Nostradamus I wonder why Nietzsche hasn't been declared a prophet yet

.

Howard · 03-09-2002, 06:03 AM

Having lived in the buckle of the Bible Belt most of my life (and having been lucky enough to travel to Europe quite a bit) I attribute it to the three “i’s” – indoctrination, insulation and ignorance.

Many American Protestants are immersed in their religion from a very early age. They are instructed in absolute terms that the Bible is the literal word of God and Christ the only means of salvation. Furthermore, this is done in an atmosphere of almost monolithic belief. Their family, friends and teachers tend to believe the same way; and the ones who don’t are fearful of dissension. Most don’t question their core beliefs at all until their college years,

Then of course there is the matter of insulation, particularly when it comes to other cultures and other ways of thinking. Many Americans, especially small towners, are extremely provincial, and aren’t interested in ideas outside their little universe. And they tend to associate only with those who think exactly the same way. I've been told by people that they can't be friends with me because I'm an atheist. (Of course being obnoxious probably doesn't help.)

Finally, there is just plain ignorance – of science, politics, philosophy or even different theologies. The sentiment seems to be – I know the truth, don’t confuse me with the facts. I have little doubt that there is a strong correlation between fundamentalism and lack of education.

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Howard ]</p>

03-09-2002, 01:56 PM

Sullster:

Quote:

Europeans have no more illusions and are done with all fantasies, religious or philosophical

Would that this were true! While religion may no longer be very popular, all sorts of other weird beliefs are. Cherie Blair, wife of British PM Tony Blair, is a highly successful barrister and clearly intelligent. She just doesn't, however, appear to have learnt to think. Apart from the fact that she is a practising catholic, she is into all kinds of new-age rubbish and encourages Tony to join in. She reportedly wears special "energising" crystals.

She is by no means atypical. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

IslamExposed.Com · 03-09-2002, 02:16 PM

Europeans know history better than Americans, the corruption and the evils of religion is fresh in european's minds. They also see what religion is doing to peoples and nations around the world.

Americans do not care about what is going on around the world and most americans have no clue what country is where even.

sullster · 03-09-2002, 02:19 PM

DMB,
I see your point and understand that all kinds of nonsense is believed by Europeans. I still maintain that Nietzsche's insight was correct about Europe in particular. Europe was ahead of America in finally ridding itself of the shackles of the christian myth in the thinking of its intellectual classes. Perhaps other nonsenses rage now and then but overall the christian myth is done among the intelligentsia.

Here in America, there are still segments of the intelligentsia who hold the christian myth as true and it influences things. Our struggles with creationists is a case in point. There is a lot of thought put into the creationist argument here in the US. That would be absurd in Europe. Evolution is a fact there, the game is over. God is dead as an explanatory force.

IslamExposed.Com · 03-09-2002, 02:22 PM

Agreed!

Egoinos · 03-09-2002, 03:47 PM

"Give me a child at seven, and he is mine for life"

Could it be early religious indoctrination from parents, TV and so-forth?

Another reason why the US is more religious could have to do with the Enlightenment. You didn't have it. There seems to have been more widespread scepticism earlier in Europe than in the US, which, as a relatively isolated country, didn't hear or disseminate sceptical thought. This might also explain America's wierd fondness for Freud - even though, so I'm told, psychologists have long realised the guy was talking rubbish!

I realise those are vast generalisations - and generalisations are generally wrong

, but I thought it might be useful.

Sephiroth · 03-09-2002, 03:48 PM

<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,664608,00.html" target="_blank">http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,664608,00.html</a>

I dunno about mainland Europe but I wouldn't give so much praise to the Brits.

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03-08-2002, 02:11 PM	#21
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	For sure Ivan and I just threw it out as a rather useless point. It takes courage to walk away from religious indoctrination because often much is invested in this and so naturally the more is invested (such as education and many years of devotion) the more courage it will take. Opposite this is the amount of courage it takes to stick with it to the end and let someone else be in charge of your destiny to the bitter end. I do have an opinion as to why religion thrives in America and that is more towards the negative side of religion. You may have noticed that I do not agree with the evangelistic side of religion which is so effective for them because of the whitcraft they employ to spread the good news. While this may not be the only cause it sure is a contributing factor. [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

03-08-2002, 02:23 PM	#22
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Why are Europeans less religious than the US? I think Nietzsche had it right when he wrote back in the 1880's that "God is Dead". The European intellectual classes had broken with theism totally and finally. Thus ending many centuries of infatuation with the christian myth. Yet, Nietzsche accurately warned that,"Mankind will go insane when he realizes that god is dead". The period of insanity raged in 20th century Europe with WW1 and 2, communism and naziism, deluded nationalism and finally tribal killings in the former Yugoslavia. Europeans have no more illusions and are done with all fantasies, religious or philosophical. Us Americans still have our illusions. Americans still don't know that god is long dead.

03-08-2002, 08:33 PM	#23
Sephiroth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 625	Given how people always like to bring up Nostradamus I wonder why Nietzsche hasn't been declared a prophet yet .

03-09-2002, 06:03 AM	#24
Howard Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,864	Having lived in the buckle of the Bible Belt most of my life (and having been lucky enough to travel to Europe quite a bit) I attribute it to the three “i’s” – indoctrination, insulation and ignorance. Many American Protestants are immersed in their religion from a very early age. They are instructed in absolute terms that the Bible is the literal word of God and Christ the only means of salvation. Furthermore, this is done in an atmosphere of almost monolithic belief. Their family, friends and teachers tend to believe the same way; and the ones who don’t are fearful of dissension. Most don’t question their core beliefs at all until their college years, Then of course there is the matter of insulation, particularly when it comes to other cultures and other ways of thinking. Many Americans, especially small towners, are extremely provincial, and aren’t interested in ideas outside their little universe. And they tend to associate only with those who think exactly the same way. I've been told by people that they can't be friends with me because I'm an atheist. (Of course being obnoxious probably doesn't help.) Finally, there is just plain ignorance – of science, politics, philosophy or even different theologies. The sentiment seems to be – I know the truth, don’t confuse me with the facts. I have little doubt that there is a strong correlation between fundamentalism and lack of education. [ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Howard ]</p>

03-09-2002, 02:16 PM	#26
IslamExposed.Com Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10	Europeans know history better than Americans, the corruption and the evils of religion is fresh in european's minds. They also see what religion is doing to peoples and nations around the world. Americans do not care about what is going on around the world and most americans have no clue what country is where even.

03-09-2002, 02:19 PM	#27
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	DMB, I see your point and understand that all kinds of nonsense is believed by Europeans. I still maintain that Nietzsche's insight was correct about Europe in particular. Europe was ahead of America in finally ridding itself of the shackles of the christian myth in the thinking of its intellectual classes. Perhaps other nonsenses rage now and then but overall the christian myth is done among the intelligentsia. Here in America, there are still segments of the intelligentsia who hold the christian myth as true and it influences things. Our struggles with creationists is a case in point. There is a lot of thought put into the creationist argument here in the US. That would be absurd in Europe. Evolution is a fact there, the game is over. God is dead as an explanatory force.

03-09-2002, 02:22 PM	#28
IslamExposed.Com Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10	Agreed!

03-09-2002, 03:47 PM	#29
Egoinos Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 423	"Give me a child at seven, and he is mine for life" Could it be early religious indoctrination from parents, TV and so-forth? Another reason why the US is more religious could have to do with the Enlightenment. You didn't have it. There seems to have been more widespread scepticism earlier in Europe than in the US, which, as a relatively isolated country, didn't hear or disseminate sceptical thought. This might also explain America's wierd fondness for Freud - even though, so I'm told, psychologists have long realised the guy was talking rubbish! I realise those are vast generalisations - and generalisations are generally wrong , but I thought it might be useful.

03-09-2002, 03:48 PM	#30
Sephiroth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 625	<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,664608,00.html" target="_blank">http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,664608,00.html</a> I dunno about mainland Europe but I wouldn't give so much praise to the Brits.

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