xeren

Wow, this thread sure is entertaining, here are some of your best statements in bold, with people's replies to them:

You know, the only sad thing about atheism is that you realize that there is no chance for Christians that have died to realize how far from the truth they were during there lives, and how they wasted that life thinking they were putting a down payment on eternal bliss.

Almost makes me want to be a Christian, just for the "I told you so" factor. Almost.

hinduwoman

To repeat, "who told Jesus to die for my sins?" Did it ever occur to God that may be I am willing to be punished for my crimes --- whatever they are --- than have another innocent person suffer?

If my brother is executed for a murder I committed, then that is miscarriage of justice; and if I rejoice at it, I am immoral.

alek0

Precisely. Even if your brother is willing to die for you, it would still be immoral of you to accept it.

And "god has different morals" is no answer. After reading all those attrocities in OT I am certainly not impressed by his morals and his "perfect justice". Does anyone considers need for sacrificing lambs and doves after birth of a child just and necessary? Does anyone consider slaughter of everyone except young female virgins just? Does anyone considers laws for stoning disobedient children and women raped within the city (those raped in countryside have to marry their rapist and never divorce him) just? What is the justification for all the attrocities described in OT? If god could tell them it is wrong to worship golden calf, he surely could have told them that it is wrong to slaughter children just because they are male.

Radorth

And what besides nonsense has anyone else come up with here? The solutions all have one of these elements:

1. Brute force and interference on a daily basis

2. Pre-programing to roughly the autonomy of an ant

3. Removing all temptation (alcohol, sex, money- all the perennial favorites)

4. Frontal lobotomy or equivalent

5. Appearing to everybody and working a few miracles, hoping this will somehow build permanent character.

6. Taking away all opportunities to sin temporarily

7. Save everybody anyway since it's all God's fault

What did I miss? Nothing I'm afraid.

None of these prove God's love, satisfy justice, or result in a permanent solution to rebellion like the cross and repentance from sin and dead works. These two things make ALL the difference in our relationship with God. We repent of all, and he can forgive all. Justice is served. The love of God is manifest to us if he would sacrifice his own son, which Jesus willingly did "for the joy set before him." This acting "holier than God" because he sacrificed a son he knew would rise from the dead is just petty in the scheme of things.

None of the above "solutions" enable God to save every person, primarily because none of them specially enable God to impute righteousness. And I call them hypocritical because nobody whines more than atheists if someone tries to control them.

And let us note that NONE of these require repentance, teach any hard unforgettable lessons, employ the enormous power of grace, or insure an end to rebellion. But then those aren't important to atheists, far as I can tell. (Surprise surprise) In fact rebellion is a virtue to some, repentance something only those dumb theists worry about it. And grace? Who needs it. "We have willpower."

Rad

Radorth

Heh. So be it then. And what of the sin of eternal rebellion? What shall be your punishment for that? And how many people who repent on their deathbeds would be saved via your nobel religion?

None.

Your brother isn't chosen by God to die for the sins of the whole world He does not have the authority to forgive sins or take yours upon him. Your brother isn't going to be raised from the dead a few days later. Your brother was not "the lamb of God." Your brother isn't the spotless lamb necessary for the sacrifice.

Bad analogy.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

Where did the sin that Jesus supposably payed for come from?
All Christians up until a couple hundred years ago or so would have said it was from Adam & Eve. Some Christians still do.
You have said that that is just a fable not to be taken literally.

So tell me Radorth,where have the picking and choosing Christians decided all this sin came from?

winstonjen

Why should we be punished for something so petty? According to the bible, men can't even urinate without undergoing a purification ritual afterwards.

BTW, why should people who repent at the last minute be 'saved' and go to heaven? It makes a mockery and perversion of 'justice', something your religion has little of.

Quote:

Your brother isn't chosen by God to die for the sins of the whole world He does not have the authority to forgive sins or take yours upon him. Your brother isn't going to be raised from the dead a few days later. Your brother was not "the lamb of God." Your brother isn't the spotless lamb necessary for the sacrifice. Bad analogy. Rad

So instead, god sacrificed the most innocent of all, to put HIS OWN ANGER at ease. Sorry, but why does there have to be a sacrifice AT ALL?!?!? Oh, that's right, your god is too petty and vengeful to forgive people out of the goodness of his heart, BECAUSE HE HAS NO GOODNESS!

Radorth

To which the same Winstonjen answers:

Therefore a God who forgave someone on his or her deathbed would be making a mockery of justice? Do we understand you correctly?

How unfortunately typical of "rational" thought on II.

Rad

winstonjen

:banghead:

Rad, read the bible from cover to cover. There is a litany of horrific deeds that he's done.

Quote:

Therefore a God who forgave someone on his or her deathbed would be making a mockery of justice? Do we understand you correctly? How unfortunately typical of "rational" thought on II. Rad

Yes, because they are most likely trying to get forgiven so they can go to heaven, not because they regret what they did.

BTW, Rad, what is "rational" thought to you - blind theistic belief?

Radorth

"...for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing..." 1 Cor 1:18

But I shall attempt to explain it, as it is the key to finding the grace we all need, knowing the love of God, true spiritual revival, the impetus to repentance, etc. Also we've seen how (the Christian) God's motives have been impugned here, so it seems we ought to hear what they are from the NT at least.

"and the base things of the world, and the things that are not, God has chosen to bring to nothing the things that are. that no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor 1:28-29)

Not to worry. Nothing strips one of pride and self glorying like seeing what Jesus endured for our sakes.

"...for the joy set before him, he endured the cross, despising the shame..." (Heb 12:2)

The joy of seeing even incorrigibles like me and Fenton saved I take it. That's love.

"For it pleased the Father that in him all the fullness should dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through his blood on the cross. And you who once were alienated...he has reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in his sight..." (Col 1:20)

This means you winstonjen!

"....having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to a cross." (Col 2:14)

The big meanie.

"But, but, Rad, he let some poor little pigs get drowned!"

Criminy.

Rad