Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 08-31-2002, 08:45 AM

Good news for science:

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19614-2002Aug31.html" target="_blank">Judge: Group Should Get Skeleton</a>

Dr.GH · 08-31-2002, 11:07 AM

The bad news is that the remains will be destroyed. The "sacred reburial" will have much the same effect as running your car a few hundred times over these very fragile bones.

The other bad news is that NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act) is still a State supported religion. And it is costing millions $$.

I point out that there is no document that can ever replace the actual material. There is no way the we can now anticipate the research questions, or methodologies that might become significant in the future. In the meantime, every prehistoric human remain, and every Native American "sacred" artifact in America is being sytematically destroyed.

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]

mibby529 · 09-02-2002, 01:58 PM

Good news for PSEUDOscience you mean.

<a href="http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html</a>

pz · 09-02-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mibby529:
Good news for PSEUDOscience you mean.

<a href="http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html</a>

Your link is to a site that briefly mentions discredited ideas in anthropometry. That has nothing to do with the scientific analysis of Kennewick Man.

Do you have a rational reason to object to the study of these bones? I'd be interested in hearing it.

ps418 · 09-03-2002, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mibby529:
Good news for PSEUDOscience you mean.

<a href="http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html</a>

More evidence of Mibby's limited mental capacity. The topic of the thread is Kennewick Man, and Mibby posts a link about anthropometry, as if this were relevant in some way. WTF? What a nut.

ps418 · 09-03-2002, 02:59 PM

Well, I think I may have figured out the alternative to the Bering Land bridge migration theory, and why Mibby is too afraid to reveal what it is. According to Sebastian LeBeau, repatriation officer for the Cheyenne River Sioux, a Lakota tribe based in Eagle Butte, S.D., quoted in a 1996 NYT article:

Quote:

"We never asked science to make a determination as to our origins. . . We know where we came from. We are the descendants of the Buffalo people. They came from inside the earth after supernatural spirits prepared this world for humankind to live here. If non-Indians choose to believe they evolved from an ape so be it. I have yet to come across five Lakotas who believe in science and in evolution."

And Mibby has the nerve to call everyone else's ideas pseudoscience!

Mibby- you dont believe you are descended from the Buffalo People, do you?

From the same article:

Quote:

Last spring, "Red Earth, White Lies: Native Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact" (Scribner, 1995) by Vine Deloria Jr., a history professor at the University of Colorado and a prominent Indian advocate and legal scholar, won a Colorado Book Award for the best books of the year by local authors.

In his book, Deloria dismisses as "scientific folklore" the theory, embraced by virtually all archeologists, that America's native peoples came from Asia across the Bering Strait 10,000 or more years ago. According to many Indian creation accounts, natives have always lived in the Americas after emerging onto the surface of the earth from a subterranean world of spirits. Using some of the same arguments embraced by fundamentalist Christians, Deloria also dismisses the theory of evolution as more unsubstantiated dogma.

"Science is the dominant religion," he said in an interview. In trying to shore up their own creation accounts, he said, archeologists "are fudging considerably so that their general interpretation does not give us much confidence, and some Indian accounts may be more accurate."

<a href="http://www.santafe.edu/~johnson/articles.creation.html" target="_blank">Indian Tribes' Creationists Thwart Archeologists </a>

Oolon Colluphid · 09-04-2002, 01:41 AM

I guess one could laugh, Patrick, but I feel more of a <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> coming on.

Well, at least it's a new flavour of idiocy. It's good to ring the changes I suppose...

Oolon

MrDarwin · 09-04-2002, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mibby529:
Good news for PSEUDOscience you mean.

<a href="http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html</a>

Mibby, if you have anything of substance to contribute about Kennewick Man or the controversy surrounding his remains, I'm all ears. But I have to conclude that you don't.

Do you know anything about the history of Kennewick Man?

MrDarwin · 09-04-2002, 05:17 AM

Here a website with more information about Kennewick Man:

<a href="http://www.kennewick-man.com" target="_blank">Kennewick Man virtual Interpretive Center</a>

It's interesting to note that Kennewick Man was initially investigated as a possible homicide, later identified as older remains of a white settler, and only after carbon dating were the remains discovered to be thousands of years old.

Interestingly enough, at one point a white European group laid claim to the remains. Given the age of the remains, and lacking any hard evidence about the relationships of Kennewick Man, their claim could be as valid as anybody else's. Now, how should we go about deciding between two competing claims?

MrDarwin · 09-04-2002, 06:31 AM

I doubt it will satisfy Mibby, but let me also add that I think that the treatment of native americans, their remains, and their artifacts over the years has been deplorable. I have no doubt that many of the remains and artifacts now in museums were obtained illegally, or at least unethically. I don't view theft or graveyard looting as acceptable under any circumstances.

But that said, I also don't believe that any modern humans can lay claim to remains that are several thousands of years old, particularly when there is no evidence that they were given a formal burial nor are in clearly defined sacred areas. In the case of Kennewick Man, there is no evidence of any connection between his remains and any living native americans, much less any modern tribe. If anybody thinks there is (Mibby?) I'd like to hear their reasoning.

08-31-2002, 08:45 AM	#1
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Kennewick Man Good news for science: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19614-2002Aug31.html" target="_blank">Judge: Group Should Get Skeleton</a>

08-31-2002, 11:07 AM	#2
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	The bad news is that the remains will be destroyed. The "sacred reburial" will have much the same effect as running your car a few hundred times over these very fragile bones. The other bad news is that NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act) is still a State supported religion. And it is costing millions $$. I point out that there is no document that can ever replace the actual material. There is no way the we can now anticipate the research questions, or methodologies that might become significant in the future. In the meantime, every prehistoric human remain, and every Native American "sacred" artifact in America is being sytematically destroyed. [ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]</p>

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09-02-2002, 01:58 PM	#3
mibby529 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cali Posts: 170	Good news for PSEUDOscience you mean. <a href="http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/anthropo.html</a>

09-04-2002, 01:41 AM	#7
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	I guess one could laugh, Patrick, but I feel more of a <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> coming on. Well, at least it's a new flavour of idiocy. It's good to ring the changes I suppose... Oolon

09-04-2002, 05:17 AM	#9
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Here a website with more information about Kennewick Man: <a href="http://www.kennewick-man.com" target="_blank">Kennewick Man virtual Interpretive Center</a> It's interesting to note that Kennewick Man was initially investigated as a possible homicide, later identified as older remains of a white settler, and only after carbon dating were the remains discovered to be thousands of years old. Interestingly enough, at one point a white European group laid claim to the remains. Given the age of the remains, and lacking any hard evidence about the relationships of Kennewick Man, their claim could be as valid as anybody else's. Now, how should we go about deciding between two competing claims?

09-04-2002, 06:31 AM	#10
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	I doubt it will satisfy Mibby, but let me also add that I think that the treatment of native americans, their remains, and their artifacts over the years has been deplorable. I have no doubt that many of the remains and artifacts now in museums were obtained illegally, or at least unethically. I don't view theft or graveyard looting as acceptable under any circumstances. But that said, I also don't believe that any modern humans can lay claim to remains that are several thousands of years old, particularly when there is no evidence that they were given a formal burial nor are in clearly defined sacred areas. In the case of Kennewick Man, there is no evidence of any connection between his remains and any living native americans, much less any modern tribe. If anybody thinks there is (Mibby?) I'd like to hear their reasoning.

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