BadBadBad

In my opinion, she is the one doing a poor job of risk management. She is risking wasting her life going to church. She is risking her marriage and the future of her family. Some of their kids are old enough to have a say in the divorce. She also risks ailenating her kids. Perhaps they will join dear old dad in going straight to hell. She risks sharing some responsibility for that as well. For all of these likely consequences, what is the upside for her? These aren't mythical risks. These are very real. Compared to all these consequences, I don't see any upside for her, and I call that bad risk management.

Aerion

As I said above, not believing in God is heresy and a mortal sin. This belief is founded in the Bible.

Rhea

Yes, painful to her. I guess I get the sense from your posts that some shouting goes on. And some swearing. And that might make it also seem like it's painful to you. But at any rate, yes, try to make it less painful for her. Some possible tactics? Ask for a cooling-off period. A "we will not talk about it for 24 hours, we have kids to love and they are feeling scared", or two days or something. As long as you can delay the discussion lets her focus on you-the-person, if possible, not you-the-atheist.

I dunno, I'm just writing my reactions to your post, Not that I'm any expert or anything. It just seemed that you were expecting a lot out of her and that you were sharing words like Lie and Sham with her and that just seemed so counter to the peace that you were trying to achieve.

How to defuse her? I would see what happens about trying a cooling off period. Shower her with love no matter what she says. reassure her (and the children!) how committed you are to the relationship. Use Helen's quotes about how she doesn't have grounds to divorce you. And love her some more. If you express commitment to her, the marriage and the children no matter what, and try to "yes my darling" her to her knees, I think that will go a long way toward mellowing her fears.

Just my 2¢

What made me say that was a couple of things. First, Darren's the one I'm talking to. It doesn't do much good (IMO) for me to tell him how his wife should behave. The only control he has is over his own actions. And second, because of the posts he made about his responses to her. Some of them seemed confrontational in a way that was practically off-topic.

You're right, that BOTH parties benefit from being non-confrontational, but the evidence before us is that she's not being rational and he is. And I suggest that if he's going to be rational, he practice what he preaches and not be confrontational. Since one of her compalints (or worries?) is that he is no longer a nice guy, he can diffuse much of her divorce-fuel by being a nice guy all the time. (Prepare bandages for the tongue for when you bite through it)

Goliath

x-xian,

That is because to many xians it is quite simply impossible for you to hold any moral values whatsoever as an atheist. In the eyes of millions (billions?) of xians, it is best that all atheists be wiped off of the earth: after all, if we can't hold any morals, then why would we not commit atrocity after atrocity?

Oh, and a pre-emptive statement: Helen, I don't care what you think "typical xianity" is. Such opinions of yours have no bearing on this discussion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Primordial Groove

Seeing a psychologist had a dramatic change on my perception of a specific event awhile back. I stopped internalizing it. Perhaps a psychologist could help your wife.

At this point, what do you have to lose?

southernhybrid

First let me say that my heart goes out to both of you gentlemen that are having to face these problems in your marriages. My first husband was a nonxian theist and that was difficult enough. He often tried to make me feel as if I was not as enlightened as he was since I didn't belief in god. I was an agnostic at the time and was even involved with and respected his Eastern religion but that wasn't enough for him. I can only imagine how heartbreaking it must be in either of your current situations.

I do have one idea that may or may not work but I offer it for your consideration. Darren said that his wife is very fearful of hell. I was raised in a fundamentalist xian family and I know about that fear. I become a liberal theist than agnostic before I was an atheist. While I still believed in god, it was always difficult for me to understand how a loving god could be so evil as to condemn the majority of his children to eternal torture.

Have you tried using that approach on either of your wives? Have you suggested to them that if there is a god, you firmly believe that he will judge you not by what you belief since that is really something that a person can't control, but by the actions and works you do in your life? Logically, even as a conservative xian child, I found it very difficult to accept that god would be so cruel and unfair, as to punish innocent people for the simple act of disbelief and then to reward people who may have committed many horrible sins just because they asked for forgiveness. That is what helped me eventually take the path away from xianity. Your wives may need their religions for emotional reasons but maybe in a gentle nonthreatening way you guys could help them give up the most illogical and destructive parts of xianity.

God is often portrayed as a loving father in the Bible. Ask your wives, would they under any circumstances threaten their children with death and torture, over something so silly as what their children believe. Or would they punish or reward their children based on their actions and behavior? Why would we, who are according to the xian religion made in god's image be any different from god in that respect? They will have to be a little bit open minded if this will make any impact but I don't think it would hurt to give this approach a try. I used to ask this question to my father and he would say, "we can't understand why god is that way" but I know it gave him cause for thought. Maybe if I had persisted, he would have seen how silly his beliefs were.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: southernhybrid ]</p>

Vicar Philip

Rhea:

I'm sorry if I've given you the impression that I spontaneously shout "Lie!" and "Scam!" while my wife and I are discussing this whole Sky Daddy issue. I only use those descriptions when I write here. I have made every attempt to calmly and rationally explain to her why I don't believe. She doesn't care.

Tonight she really hurt my feelings. I know she's depressed right now, because I talked to her on the phone a few times and she seemed like she was drugged. Anyway, when I got home, she barely acknowledged me. I had to take my kids to a supper for my son's cross-country team, and right before I left she came up and hugged me. During the hug, she said: "The only thing that feels good about hugging you is the warmth from your body."

This floored me. I am still bleeding inside from her saying that. So, without GAWD and JEBUS I am apparently a dead, lifeless, evil SHELL that happens to kick out a couple of BTU of heat. No, Rhea, I didn't tell her that. I was speechless. I did say, "So the only reason you married me was because I was Christian." Yes, she said, that was the main reason.

Well how do ya like them apples??? What the hell am I supposed to say to THAT??

I am hoping this is just part of her depression.

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HelenM

Do you think she really doesn't care or is she too depressed to be give any attention to it?

Yes, but not deliberately, right? She was expressing her feelings to you and you're saying she seems quite depressed.

One thing that book I recommended focuses in on is what they say to us and what we hear. They can be two different things.

But she didn't say that. She was talking about how she feels.

I think when someone's in that sort of mood it's best not to ask questions like that. They will say things they don't really mean. I'm sure there were lots of reasons she specifically chose you to marry. But - if she's depressed she won't have the motivation or energy to think of them right now.

You could say "I'm sorry you feel that way".

Or you could say nothing if you're unable to say anything at all supportive.

It seems very likely to me that it is.

Depression is an illness; if she is depressed then she won't be able to have the reactions and responses of an emotionally healthy person. She also will be very self-absorbed and have distorted thinking. So this is not a time when you can expect her to give much thought to your feelings. If she's depressed it's not so much that she's choosing not to care - it's more that she doesn't have the ability to think beyond her own emotional pain.

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip

Helen,

Thank you for your kindness.

Darren

Blankman

x-xian,

Just wondering, what would happen if a "mild" atheist type book were strategically placed somewhere in your house where your wife might see it. Women are typically very "curious" individuals (sorry ladies). Do you think she could help herself from not taking a peek? That way she might learn something about atheism or Bible atrocities, etc. on her own in private, rather than coming from you. Just bouncing off ideas.