Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JonathanChance · 06-24-2003, 02:46 PM

Man cites Mosiac law, says he should be punished instead of his wife for child endangerment.

Oh geeze, I don't know what to say other than this is the sort of thing that makes me keep believeing that religious fundamentalism is a form of mental illness.

BTW, anybody here got any more information on that sect these people belong to?

Toto · 06-24-2003, 03:10 PM

Praise Google!

First Christian Fellowship of Eternal Sovereignty

This is Nutwatch material!

Quote:

The beliefs of The First Christian Fellowship of Eternal Sovereignty are founded upon the Holy Scriptures, All the teachings of Jesus Christ, The Ten Commandments; The God given Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States of America, The Bill of Rights, And all other God given Amendments to our Glorious Constitution. We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under the direction of Divine Providence as created and composed of the individual sovereign States. We do this as Sovereigns ourselves, Kings or Queens all, with God given unalienable rights, from which this government receives its privilege to govern only within Constitutional contractual limitations.

I recognize that our United States of America's Constitution was founded upon the distrust of government by men and that the division of powers is one manifestation of that distrust; believing that each branch of government would jealously guard its power thereby limiting government. I also recognize that our Founding Fathers warned us, Americans, that we must be eternally vigilant against government usurpation of power; that we must jealously guard our Sovereign rights and freedoms. We Sovereigns do hereby jealously reclaim our rights and powers; and pledge to guard and defend them at all costs, from this day forward and forever.

I abhor and denounce, as satanic, any and all numbers, tattoos, electronic identification, my name spelled in all CAPITAL LETTERS and not with correct capital and lower case letters, or other devices compelled, forced, or coerced by any government or its agents upon Sovereign individuals or private groups to thus label, track, brand, mark or identify Sovereigns or non-governmental associations. I claim my religious freedom to be free of such markings as they are a direct "infringement" by government upon such religious freedom. The Mark of the Beast, as found in the book of Revelation, is intended to prevent mankind from working, buying, selling, trading, or engaging in commerce without paying a slaves share to the Beast's plan of socialism. Such a payment and marking is in direct opposition to our beloved Savior's will. We cannot have religious freedom and be marked nor identified by any such numbers or name changes that include the Social Security Identification Number and Card.

from here.

Jewel · 06-24-2003, 04:40 PM

These people are serious?!?!?!?!? Nutwatch material, indeed....

Ovazor · 06-24-2003, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonathanChance

BTW, anybody here got any more information on that sect these people belong to?

Must one of those sects thinking that using brains is a mortal sin.

gravitybow · 06-25-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

I abhor and denounce, as satanic... my name spelled in all CAPITAL LETTERS and not with correct capital and lower case letters, or other devices compelled, forced, or coerced by any government ...

I've never heard of this one before. Is this in the Bible somewhere? It seems to be referring to the fact that gov't forms often require information written in block (printed capital) letters, but whether you print all upper case or a mix of upper and lower case, you're still giving the same information to the gov't. So what's the point? Why is the CAPITAL LETTER format satanic?

GRAVITYBOW

SinEater · 06-25-2003, 10:05 AM

Interesting.

My understanding is that "Dr." Dino himself, the delightfully lunatic Kent Hovind subscribes to almost exactly this brand of nonsense.

He also holds to the "CAPITAL LETTERS" thing, and claims that he is not actually a citizen of the UNITED STATES, as this is some sort of Satanic Fiction.

No wonder he dodges all of his taxes.

I wonder what Stars and Stripes, who recently ran an uncritical article about his phoney "250,000.00 Challenge to Evolution" would think if they knew he was a self-confessed noncitizen and tax-dodger?

Back to the OP, He certainly has an interesting theory of jurisprudence.

What happens if his wife commits murder? Is he the only one allowed to punish her? Or is the state obligated to execute him instead of her?

That sounds like an interesting way for an unhappy wife to get rid of an unwanted or abusive husband and also knock off an additional hated enemy in one blow. She gets to kill someone she doesn't like, and then the state executes her husband instead of her, leaving her free to marry another.

Two birds with one stone...

(Also if they are so Traditional and Ultra-Orthodox, why do they have different last names???)

gravitybow · 06-25-2003, 04:45 PM

Quote:

SinEater
Also if they are so Traditional and Ultra-Orthodox, why do they have different last names???)

Well, check this out!

Quote:

from the First Christian Fellowship of Eternal Sovereignty
Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses. Some have said to me, �If someone is married without a marriage license, then they aren�t really married.� Given the fact that states may soon legalize same-sex marriages, we need to ask ourselves, �If a man and a man marry with a State marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a State marriage license - who�s really married? Is it the two men with a marriage license, or the man and woman without a marriage license? In reality, this contention that one is not really married unless they obtain a marriage license just reveals how Statist we have become in our thinking. We need to think biblically.

You should not have to obtain a license from the State to marry someone anymore than you should have to obtain a license from the State to be a parent, which some in academic and legislative circles are currently pushing to be made law.

When I marry a couple, I always buy them a Family Bible which contains birth and death records, and a marriage certificate. We record the marriage in the Family Bible. What�s recorded in a Family Bible will stand up as a legally binding document in any court of law in America. Both George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriage in their Family Bibles. So should we.

Without a state-issued marriage certificate, they basically have a common law marriage, therefore no legal name change. Common law marriage is recognized in Pennsylvania, where they live. I say they were probably married in Pennsylvania, because Ohio (where she got the ticket) hasn�t had common law marriage since October 1991, and Michigan (where the wife owns a house) doesn�t have it. But those states recognize common law marriages from other states.

Quote:

Lee A. Schwartz, Attorney at law
Common Law marriage is alive and well in Pennsylvania. There are two ways to be common law married. For those who do not know, common law marriage is a legal marriage in Pennsylvania without a marriage certificate. Here are the two ways (both of which are difficult to prove):

1. Holding one�s self out to the world as being husband and wife: In this method of common law marriage, husband and wife hold themselves out to the world as though they are married. There are many factors the Court would look at the determine if a person is married according the this standard. By no means is this list intended to be exhaustive; these are merely some of the factors a court might look at:

<snip>

The more of these that indicate that you are �married� or considered yourselves to be husband and wife, the more likely it is that a court will find that you are married. OR

2. The private ceremony: In the private marriage ceremony, the man and the woman each express their love for each other and each state that they take the other to be their spouse. As long as this is witnessed by two other adults, you are considered married.

There are enormous proof problems with common law marriage. Courts are skeptical that one intended to be married and didn�t get married in the traditional sense. The best bet is to get married in the traditional way...you will avoid a lot of problems down the road.

Really, I don�t have any idea where they were married or under what circumstances. For all I know, they have a conventional marriage. I�m just saying that, if they were married in a First Christian Fellowship of Eternal Sovereignty ceremony in Pennsylvania and shunned the state-issued marriage certificate (as their duty dictates), then according to the second method given above, they have a common law marriage and she never changed her last name.

If that�s the case, I�m wondering how that will affect their fight all the way to the Supreme Court?

gravitybow · 06-26-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

I abhor and denounce, as satanic, any and all numbers, tattoos, electronic identification, my name spelled in all CAPITAL LETTERS and not with correct capital and lower case letters, or other devices compelled, forced, or coerced by any government or its agents upon Sovereign individuals or private groups to thus label, track, brand, mark or identify Sovereigns or non-governmental associations. I claim my religious freedom to be free of such markings as they are a direct "infringement" by government upon such religious freedom. The Mark of the Beast, as found in the book of Revelation, is intended to prevent mankind from working, buying, selling, trading, or engaging in commerce without paying a slaves share to the Beast's plan of socialism. Such a payment and marking is in direct opposition to our beloved Savior's will. We cannot have religious freedom and be marked nor identified by any such numbers or name changes that include the Social Security Identification Number and Card.

OK, after digging around, I�m starting to get the whole CAPITAL LETTER thing.
Here�s a site called Family Guardian that is chock full of neat ways for Sovereign Christians to cheat the government. The Family Guardian doesn�t appear to be connected to The First Christian Fellowship for Eternal Sovereignty, but they say similar things. If you want to see how this twisted logic works, then read Copyrighting Your Name

Quote:

excerpts
Recognize at the outset that you are dealing with a bunch of criminals who have abandoned their responsibilities as agents of the people by vacating the government and becoming a corporation to advance the commercial interests of the world. They attempt to make a corporation out of you, too, by writing your Christian appellation in all-capital letters which is a clear prejudice against you,�

�Your name was similarly corrupted when a constructive trust was established as you volunteered into Social Security, making you part of the national socialist democracy and assigning you an employee I.D. number (SSAN)�

�So, when you receive a presentment (bill, citation, tax bill, lawsuit, summons), you are alleged to be a corporation simply by how your Christian appellation is styled (all-capital letters) on the presentment. If you consent to that allegation by remaining silent during the time given to responding, it amounts to acceptance of your corporate status (acquiescence by silence)�

�RULE: Never accept a presentment without contesting it, but remember that the ONLY thing you want to contest is the "style of the case," i.e. the corruption of your Christian appellation into a corporate fiction form�. [bold as it appears at the site]

�Do not ever answer to the all-capital letter name. Always object. If someone announces that they have service for you, respond with "Let me see the paperwork. Oh, that's not me." Avoid entanglements with the state�If you allow yourself to be contracted into their statutory venue as a corporation, then you are going to have to abide by the fact that they have all the rules in their favor and that you have no rights�

And from another part of the site called OTHER MARKS: BIRTH AND MARRIAGE CERTIFICATES AND ID CARDS:

Quote:

Can a Christian use an all capitalized fictitious name knowing that to do so is "...with the implication that it is meant to deceive or mislead"? Now look at your driver's license or passport or birth certificate or voter registration. Can a Christian use an all capitalized fictitious name on any ID? Now go and try to get a government ID or birth certificate with a Christian name and see what happens. You cannot do it. Government cannot issue any ID with your Christian name on it. CHRISTIANS CANNOT GET A GOVERNMENT ID CARD. Christians are not part of their system, and DO NOT EXIST IN THE EYES OF THEIR LAW. Only non-Christians can get an ID (mark) of the beast. Only non-Christians can have a name of (of= created by) the beast. Only non-Christians can get the (ID) number of the Beast's name (name=authority).

Do you now confess that you have a mark of a beast, a name of a beast, and a number of his name?�

�Real people do not exist in the eyes of the law, because people are sovereigns, and the legislature cannot and does not write laws for their masters (Matt 10:24, and John 15:20)...

You really ought to read that site, especially the part about birth certificates' proving that your children are surrendered to the government. It�s scary/hilarious.

Once again, the Family Guardian site doesn�t appear to be affiliated in any way with the First Christian Fellowship, but they seem to have similar philosophies, and they both throw the word �sovereign� around and play word games to make their cases. But the Family Guardian provided me some insight into a particular way of thinking about one�s self. And it would also explain the patterns of behavior in the OP article Man uses strict faith as defense:

Driving without a license (her Christian name corrupted by CAPs, license is mark of the beast)
Obstructing official business (avoiding entanglement with the state)
Refusing to give the responding trooper any identification (avoiding entanglement)
Turning over an ID card from Pennsylvania (probably not a state-issued document, probably her Christian name in upper and lower case)
Ever-growing stack of court documents (probably reams of justifications for sovereignty, independence from the gov�t)
Refusing to pay fine (false witness, paying the beast)
Threatening citizen�s arrest of the assistant prosecutor (holding the beast accountable)
Her last name different from his (retains her given Christian name after marriage, avoids entanglement, avoids state-issued documents with her name in CAPs)

And if they are faithful, earnestly-practicing Sovereign Christians, then:

The husband also doesn�t have a driver�s license. (name in CAPs, mark of the beast)
The couple doesn�t pay their taxes. (IRS tax forms are issued with names in CAPs, and Sovereign Christians don�t pay the beast)

It should make for an interesting court case.

Ensign Steve · 06-26-2003, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow
OK, after digging around, I�m starting to get the whole CAPITAL LETTER thing.

Very interesting! Thanks for doing all that work. I was reading some other psychotic stuff earlier today about End Time and The Rapture and the mark of the Beast, and they were talking about going cashless with debit cards, and when are we going to have smart chips installed "in" or "on" our right had or forehead?

Weird shit.

But anyway, I am really curious as to where they came up with this ALL CAPS thing. Is it because the gov't wants it in all caps, or were they against all caps in the first place, and they're mad that the gov't doesn't go along with it? I ask, because I thought (I could easily be mistaken) that there wasn't a difference between upper and lower case in Hebrew or Greek. Where in the bible does it say you can't write in all caps, when the original bible was in all caps, so to speak (I think).

Toto · 06-26-2003, 10:59 PM

Neither Greek nor Hebrew use capitals, but people this wacked out probably believe that God speaks English and directly inspired the translators of the King James Bible (except for the ones who reject the KJV because King James himself was a homosexual.)

06-24-2003, 02:46 PM	#1
JonathanChance Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Stevens Point, WI Posts: 538	Fundie man claims that he should be punished for his wife's wrongdoing... Man cites Mosiac law, says he should be punished instead of his wife for child endangerment. Oh geeze, I don't know what to say other than this is the sort of thing that makes me keep believeing that religious fundamentalism is a form of mental illness. BTW, anybody here got any more information on that sect these people belong to?

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06-24-2003, 04:40 PM	#3
Jewel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 1,112	These people are serious?!?!?!?!? Nutwatch material, indeed....

06-25-2003, 10:05 AM	#6
SinEater Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: La Crosse, WI USA Posts: 52	Interesting. My understanding is that "Dr." Dino himself, the delightfully lunatic Kent Hovind subscribes to almost exactly this brand of nonsense. He also holds to the "CAPITAL LETTERS" thing, and claims that he is not actually a citizen of the UNITED STATES, as this is some sort of Satanic Fiction. No wonder he dodges all of his taxes. I wonder what Stars and Stripes, who recently ran an uncritical article about his phoney "250,000.00 Challenge to Evolution" would think if they knew he was a self-confessed noncitizen and tax-dodger? Back to the OP, He certainly has an interesting theory of jurisprudence. What happens if his wife commits murder? Is he the only one allowed to punish her? Or is the state obligated to execute him instead of her? That sounds like an interesting way for an unhappy wife to get rid of an unwanted or abusive husband and also knock off an additional hated enemy in one blow. She gets to kill someone she doesn't like, and then the state executes her husband instead of her, leaving her free to marry another. Two birds with one stone... (Also if they are so Traditional and Ultra-Orthodox, why do they have different last names???)

06-26-2003, 10:59 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Neither Greek nor Hebrew use capitals, but people this wacked out probably believe that God speaks English and directly inspired the translators of the King James Bible (except for the ones who reject the KJV because King James himself was a homosexual.)

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