Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Theli · 02-03-2002, 05:44 PM

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OK, how about design for those that understand and complexity for those that do not understand.

Understand what? Please explain...

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The increasing complexity of life proves intelligent design in which the designer uses the external data collecting mechanism of temporal beings (via the ego wherein we are temporal ) to increase the complexity of the internal designer (the soul).

This is ofcourse assuming that a soul exists, but there is no evidence or even strong logic that would suggest it's existance.
But if you look at evolution, natural selection can produce complexity. More complex beings has a better chance for survival than less complex beings. Well, most of the time anyway (thinking of viruses).
Something can attain complexity through small mutations, where the individuals with small mutation changes wich makes them more "successfull" in their enviroment ofcourse has larger chance of survival, reproducing and carry the small change to their offspring.

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In my view God has nothing to do with the creation of the planets or even the planet we call earth. God is God of the living and not of the dead.

Hmmm... that's abit different view on god, then the one you usually hear about. Is this part of any religion?

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Maybe you should read the "absense of time" to mean "absense or measured time." For example, in our left brain we measure time while in our right brain we do not.

Not really... Of course not all time can be measured. It needs something to be constant wich you can calculate it from. Like earths orbit around the sun.
But the way I see it, time exists whenever events happen in a particular order. If time didn't exist, then all events would obviosly be simultaneous.

02-03-2002, 07:09 PM

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Originally posted by Keenanvin:
What happens when we die? Consciousness, memory and personality are consequences of the biochemical and electrical processes of the brain. These properties are dictated by genes, environment, and health, and require a supply of oxygen and energy (ATP). If the brain is changed - injured by trauma or stroke for example, or stricken with cancer - cells die, synaptic pathways are disrupted, energy metabolism can be drastically skewed. These disruptions at the cellular level mean that memories can be lost, personality changed, consciousness ended. Death is a permanent extension of this end of consciousness, and once those cellular changes occur there really is no going back. There is no magick entity of "consciousness", “soul” or “spirit” that exists apart from or longer than the biochemical workings of the brain. -Kv

When we physically die we die and that will be the end of us. Did you think otherwise?

02-03-2002, 07:33 PM

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Originally posted by Theli:

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OK, how about design for those that understand and complexity for those that do not understand.
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Understand what? Please explain... 

Understand how intelligence in needed to survive in a compettitive biological environment. 
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The increasing complexity of life proves intelligent design in which the designer uses the external data collecting mechanism of temporal beings (via the ego wherein we are temporal ) to increase the complexity of the internal designer (the soul).

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This is ofcourse assuming that a soul exists, but there is no evidence or even strong logic that would suggest it's existance.
But if you look at evolution, natural selection can produce complexity. More complex beings has a better chance for survival than less complex beings. Well, most of the time anyway (thinking of viruses).
Something can attain complexity through small mutations, where the individuals with small mutation changes wich makes them more "successfull" in their enviroment ofcourse has larger chance of survival, reproducing and carry the small change to their offspring.

A soul is the datebank where learning is tied down for many generations. Much like DNA and perhaps a combination of DNA and RNA.
Small, smaller, smallest, big, bigger and biggest mutations would be a good explanation for complexity. 

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In my view God has nothing to do with the creation of the planets or even the planet we call earth. God is God of the living and not of the dead.

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Hmmm... that's abit different view on god, then the one you usually hear about. Is this part of any religion?

It is actually in the bible. "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and other places. Also in Gen.1. Maybe you do not understand things well?
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Maybe you should read the "absense of time" to mean "absense or measured time." For example, in our left brain we measure time while in our right brain we do not.
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Not really... Of course not all time can be measured. It needs something to be constant wich you can calculate it from. Like earths orbit around the sun.
But the way I see it, time exists whenever events happen in a particular order. If time didn't exist, then all events would obviosly be simultaneous. .

Yes, like a watch, or repeating patterns in the conscious mind.

Time does not exist and in fact because it does not exist have we created its concept in our conscious mind. In eternity there is no time and our extrapolation of segments from eternity is what created the intervals we call time. This same is true with pleasure, science, light, love and all other qualities of life.

Amos

Theli · 02-04-2002, 03:41 PM

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Time does not exist and in fact because it does not exist have we created its concept in our conscious mind.

That's like saying "light doesn't exist, it's an invention of our minds".
Time can be used in calculations, and can be measured. It's not something our minds have made up. It's a concept such as distance, wich must also exist.

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Yes, like a watch, or repeating patterns in the conscious mind.

The repeating patterns are not inside our conscious minds, they are in the reality, wich our conscios minds interpret. They are small "peices" of order in a very chaotic enviroment, wich lifeforms (such as us) have evolved to see.

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In eternity there is no time and our extrapolation of segments from eternity is what created the intervals we call time.

So you mean that eternity is an infinite amount of time? Can you explain how this could be possible?

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Understand how intelligence in needed to survive in a compettitive biological environment.

What does that have to do with design vs complexity?

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A soul is the datebank where learning is tied down for many generations.

How do you suppose that memories and knowledge could be carried by a non-materialistic entity?
Is there any proof of this?

02-04-2002, 04:18 PM

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Originally posted by Theli:

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Time does not exist and in fact because it does not exist have we created its concept in our conscious mind.
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That's like saying "light doesn't exist, it's an invention of our minds".
Time can be used in calculations, and can be measured. It's not something our minds have made up. It's a concept such as distance, wich must also exist.

Just close your eyes and see how quick light will disappear. You forget here that we look with our eyes but see with our mind, and touch with our fingers but feel with our mind. The same is true our speach in which are vocal with our mouth (adams-apple) but speak with our mind. Hence glossolalia is non-rational speach. The same is true with time. We are alive in eternity but live in fragments of eternity we call time wherefore time does not exist when we are asleep.

The repeating patterns are not inside our conscious minds, they are in the reality, wich our conscios minds interpret. They are small "peices" of order in a very chaotic enviroment, wich lifeforms (such as us) have evolved to see.

Chaos is because we out of tune with creation. Harmony exists only in the mind of the beholder.

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In eternity there is no time and our extrapolation of segments from eternity is what created the intervals we call time.
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So you mean that eternity is an infinite amount of time? Can you explain how this could be possible?

Not at all, but eternity is needed for the continuity of infinite time. Without eternity as denominator infinite time could not be conceived to exist. 
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Understand how intelligence in needed to survive in a compettitive biological environment.
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What does that have to do with design vs complexity?

Design is intelligence and complexity is chaos.
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A soul is the datebank where learning is tied down for many generations.
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How do you suppose that memories and knowledge could be carried by a non-materialistic entity?
Is there any proof of this? 

Who said it is non materialistic? Our genes seem to serves as well and so do our higher order mental activities, even when we sleep.

Behavior traits and perdigree records are good evidence of this in animals. In humans they are the same but not recorded or selected upon. Plato's theory of recollection is based on this.
[/QB]

Theli · 02-04-2002, 04:35 PM

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Just close your eyes and see how quick light will disappear. You forget here that we look with our eyes but see with our mind, and touch with our fingers but feel with our mind. The same is true our speach in which are vocal with our mouth (adams-apple) but speak with our mind.

Noone sees, feels or talks with their minds. We see with our eyes, we feel with our fingers and we speak with our mouth. What the mind does is that it controls those parts of the body, aswell as recieves information from them. And the information is processed by our mind. This is common fourth grade knowledge.
So you think that the light in the entire universe disappears if you close your eyes? Your surrounding is quite real, and your mind can't make it disapear just by mere wish.

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We are alive in eternity but live in fragments of eternity we call time wherefore time does not exist when we are asleep.

So time stops when you fall asleep? Then why does the dreams have a certain duration?

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Chaos is because we out of tune with creation. Harmony exists only in the mind of the beholder.

I'm not even going to respond to that.

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Not at all, but eternity is needed for the continuity of infinite time.

Didn't you just contradict yourself there?
"Infinite time", isn't that the same as "Infinite amount of time"?

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Who said it is non materialistic? Our genes seem to serves as well and so do our higher order mental activities, even when we sleep.

Genes? Didn't you just speak of the soul? Why did you change your statement into "genes"?

02-04-2002, 04:57 PM

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Originally posted by Theli:

Noone sees, feels or talks with their minds. We see with our eyes, we feel with our fingers and we speak with our mouth. What the mind does is that it controls those parts of the body, aswell as recieves information from them. And the information is processed by our mind. This is common fourth grade knowledge.
So you think that the light in the entire universe disappears if you close your eyes? Your surrounding is quite real, and your mind can't make it disapear just by mere wish.

Yes and we are not in fourth grade anymore. I think it is time for you to go to bed because if you think that you "see with your eyes" you mind must have gone to sleep already. Isn't it about 3 AM there now?
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We are alive in eternity but live in fragments of eternity we call time wherefore time does not exist when we are asleep.
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So time stops when you fall asleep? Then why does the dreams have a certain duration?

No, with regard to the aspect of time we are alive in eternity when we are asleep.

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Not at all, but eternity is needed for the continuity of infinite time.
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Didn't you just contradict yourself there?
"Infinite time", isn't that the same as "Infinite amount of time"? 

No because without eternity being the denominator from which we extrapolate segments of time infinite time cannot exist. Eternity now becomes the infinite absense of time. In other words, without our measured time, eternity could not be and without eternity infinite time could not be.

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Who said it is non materialistic? Our genes seem to serves as well and so do our higher order mental activities, even when we sleep.
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Genes? Didn't you just speak of the soul? Why did you change your statement into "genes"?

Read again, just as our genes serve us well so do our higher order mental activities. How about if I add our DNA/RNA complex.

Filip Sandor · 02-04-2002, 05:05 PM

[bad post]

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Filip Sandor ]

Olorin · 02-05-2002, 03:03 AM

I was just wondering...is there any empirical evidence of this "soul"?

For those who actually believe in the existence the soul, please give us your definition of it.

excreationist · 02-05-2002, 04:43 AM

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Originally posted by Olorin:
I was just wondering...is there any empirical evidence of this "soul"?

Not really... but if there was, it would involve things like near-death experiences, communication with the dead and channelling (talking to someone from their past life).

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For those who actually believe in the existence the soul, please give us your definition of it.

Maybe most see it as an explanation for consciousness. It might also contain a person's memories and personality so that when they go to an afterlife they bring all of their identity with them.

02-04-2002, 05:05 PM	#28
Filip Sandor Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 181	[bad post] [ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Filip Sandor ]</p>

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02-05-2002, 03:03 AM	#29
Olorin Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Here Posts: 27	I was just wondering...is there any empirical evidence of this "soul"? For those who actually believe in the existence the soul, please give us your definition of it.

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