Theli

Something I wondered about when it comes to the existance of the soul is that if the world's (universes) population increases, where does the new souls come from? If there are more conscience beings, then more souls are needed, right? And when the universe ends, where does the souls go?

About christanitys heaven/hell. Are those places/forms of existances eternal? If so, where does the new souls come from that lives on earth as humans?

Scrutinizer

Theli,

Your questions are good ones, and this isn't a subject I've given a great deal of thought. At any rate, I'll tentatively attempt somewhat of an answer, though these thoughts are anything but resolved in my mind!

The concept of a soul is a very slippery one, so I'll just be spurting un(in)formed thoughts here.
Plato thought that the idea for something is what bound it together. For instance, why do we assume that a decrepit, infertile, three-legged horse is still a horse? Because we know of the idea horse, and can therefore understand that even the decrepit horse resembles that, though in an imperfect way. Similarly, you'll never find a perfect circle in reality, though the idea and the concept that a circle's angles add up to 360 degrees is still meaningful.
I think Plato held that there is a "realm of ideas" from which all things originated, and that in the actual world, when we see a horse (albeit an imperfect one), we have vague recollections of the "idea" horse that we knew in the realm of ideas and that our souls long to go back. Of course, the view that the idea for something precedes our experience of that something was highly criticized by people such as David Hume, but the Platonic idea is still there.

Is there any point to the above insane ramblings? Yes, because in a way I think it is related to the concept of a soul. What exactly a "soul" is, is something I'm sure I couldn't give a scientific definition for. But at this point in time (i.e. what I concocted on the spot without giving any thought ), I believe that a person's "soul" originates in the mind of God (similar to Plato's notion of a "realm of ideas") and is actualised at the moment of conception. Or do I believe that? Honestly, I don't know, but at least it's something for you to think about as one possibility!

Hmmmm, since I think space-time is a property of the universe rather than a thing in and of itself, I find it hard to say that a soul will go to a particular place. In other words, I can't say "Oh, that soul will go off to Michigan and that soul will go to Uruguay", because that implies there is some confined "place" it is trapped in. The experience of the soul will be heaven or hell, in my opinion -- assigning a particular location seems to me to be a little bit futile.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, so if I haven't already mentioned it, please clarify. I hope my thoughts were of some sort of assistance. Obviously I don't hold to them with any sort of confidence!

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

Amos

Each new soul is a new incarnation of God. They co-exist with the human body until it (the soul) dies. When we humans procreate the physical body it is God who co-creates life. To maintain the illusion we call life we must nourish our body with the body of Christ in Christendom. Even atheists do this without realizing that they do this.

Heaven and hell are just opposites and both are eternal. Heaven is eternal bliss and hell is eternal suffering. Purgatory is the transition period and Limbo is for non-Catholics.

New souls are created by god and bodies are given before we even become human beings.

Hope that helps.

Amos

Ps Here is some definitions I used to explain where we are in relation to our soul within Christendom (excluding Judaism).
Soul = the thousand year reign of God to which we are tied as living beings.
Heaven = unity with this reign of God.
Hell = knowledge of this reign of God without unity with God.
Purgatory = exploring this reign of God.
Limbo = to remain outside Catholicism within Christendom.
Atheist and protestants would be in either limbo or hell.
Theist may or may not have correct opinion. This position extends all the way from limbo to heaven or hell.
All positions are agnostic except for those in heaven.
All positions are temporal except heaven and hell.

Orpheous99

What's a soul?

Oolon Colluphid

There's no evidence of such a thing. But to maintain the illusion they call 'god', theists need to believe there is something more to personality than 'mere' brain activity, something that can be rewarded or punished in (another necessary delusion) the afterlife by this 'god'.

Cheers, Oolon

Theli

Thanks for your answers everybody!

Scrutinizer...
What I mean is, if the soul existed and it would after the death of the body "travel" to heaven/hell and exist there forever. Then where does the souls inside the new bodies born on earth come from? They can't come from heaven/hell if those forms of existance are eternal.

I fully agree, it lacks definition.

Amos...
But I wonder... If someone was shot by a gun and died from it, he's soul would leave his body, right?
But what if his body would be repaired to the state it was before his death would he be alive? Every damage to the brain that seized it to function would be repaired, would that not be ressurection? This is a question I've asked myself. I can't really reach a conclusion on the question of the existance of souls.

How can those forms of existance really be eternal? Something I never understood either is why it is only 2 places. It seems alittle black and white to me. Does a thief merits the same punishment as a canibal? I mean, to live for eternity in hell is quite extreme, when you think about it. It sounds fabricated to me.

So if you don't follow a certain brand of religion wich has existed for less than 2000 years (and will probably not exist in more than another 1000 years), and read a certain book, or to pray in a perfect way wich comforms with that brand of religion you end up in limbo?
Now, that sounds REALLY fabricated!

Does clones have souls? If a human was manufactured and not born, would he have a soul?

Thousand years?

So christians end up in limbo also? Weird...

Thats not nice. So everyone that contradicts you will go to hell then? I bet you love to believe this. But isn't this kind of dangerous thinking? I mean, a person could become quite a narcissist, thinking like this.

Scrutinizer

Oh, I think I'm understanding your problem. You seem to be thinking that everyone has the same "soul" so it can't really be in two places at once? If people have different souls, I'm not sure where the problem is in asserting that one person's soul is in heaven whilst another's is still on earth.

You're also assuming that someone's soul is "inside" their body like an organ of some sort. I don't think that has to necessarily be true either. To be honest, I don't know, so I'm not much help to you.

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

Theli

I don't know how I can make my question more clear. I have never said that only one soul exists, that doesn't make any sense at all.
If souls existed and every person had one, then that soul couldn't exist in both hell and earth at the same time. I'm quite aware of this.

What I was saying is that, if every persons soul wich exists on earth will spend an eternity in heaven or hell after it departured from the dead body then where does the soul of the newborn child come from?
I don't see the complication in my question.

Well... that's the main question about the existance of souls. If the soul doesn't exist, then the consciousnes would exist only in our bodies. If the soul did exist it would not be an organ, since organs gets destroyed with the rest of the body. But it would be attached to the consciousnes, and would act according to the brains interpretation of it's surrounding enviroment.

When you think about it like this, then the Heaven/Hell ideas doesn't make too much sense. If a persons personality is a product of his brains characteristics and of his memories then the soul shouldn't be awarded/punished for the actions made by the brain/body, would it?
If the soul exists and Heaven/Hell exists then the soul would be the only entity to trancend.


I think that the heaven/hell idea seems VERY fabricated.

Amos

Amos

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Triple Six

Scientific objection?
Please tell me what journal you got this "scientific" information about souls from.