Freethought & Rationalism Archive

d'naturalist · 08-17-2002, 07:35 AM

I was looking up the opening line of the Gettysburg Address and came aross the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/gadd/gadrft.html" target="_blank">Gettysburg Address</a> page on the Library of Congress website.

On that page, they have what they believe to be the first two drafts of the Gettysburg Address that President Lincoln gave on Nov. 19, 1863. They even have photographs of the actual documents. What surprised me was noticing that the words "Under God" did not appear on either of Lincoln's drafts. Is there a recording of Lincoln giving the address (I assume not since Edison didn't invent the phonograph for another 14 years)? How do we know what Lincoln actually said that day? Are there published letters from Lincoln addressing the addition of those two words?

I've never actually studied the Gettysburg Address (I confess with shame), so I'm just wondering what evidence has been used to establish the accuracy of the "official" version that we've all been quoted.

Toto · 08-17-2002, 10:47 AM

Quote:

However, one of the arguments supporting the contrary theory that the delivery text has been lost is that some of the words and phrases of the Nicolay copy do not match contemporaneous accounts. The words "under God," for example, are missing from the phrase "that this nation [under God] shall have a new birth of freedom...." In order for the Nicolay draft to have been the reading copy, Lincoln uncharacteristically would have had to depart from his written text in several instances. This copy of the Gettysburg Address remained in John Nicolay's possession until his death in 1901, when it passed to his friend and colleague John Hay.

Very interesting question. It is easy to hear what you expect to hear, instead of what is actually said.

I did some quick research, but didn't find anything definitive. There is this from Cliff Walker's admirable site (but note the differences between the two accounts):

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/revision.htm" target="_blank">Rewriting of History by Christians by Madalyn Murray O'Hair</a>

Quote:

Herndon, a Lincoln friend, recounts that Lincoln once made him erase the word 'God' from a speech which he had written because the language indicated a personal god, whereas Lincoln "insisted no such personality ever existed." In the original drafts of the Gettysburg Address, twice Lincoln wrote out that speech without mention of this nation "under God," an insertion later suggested by Salmon P. Chase, a member of his cabinet.

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/lewis/lewis04.htm" target="_blank">Abraham Lincoln</a> by Joseph Lewis

Quote:

He was carried on the wave of Rationalism which swept this country in the Forties. This brought him in contact with the writings of Voltaire, Volney and Thomas Paine. They were his intimates.

As a result of Lincoln's reading of the books of these great rationalists, he became a Freethinker.

He even wrote a book against the inspiration of the Bible, and questioned the legitimacy of the birth of Jesus Christ.

He never became a member of any church, and his wife testified that he was not a Christian believer. Abraham Lincoln belonged to no sect; he professed no creed.

When he ran for Congress against the Rev. Peter Cartright he was charged with being an "infidel." Lincoln said he would not deny the charge, because it could be easily proved.

It is an established fact, verified by indisputable evidence, that Lincoln wrote the original draft of his famous Gettysburg address, with the words, "under God" left out.

These words were later inserted, at the suggestion of a religionist, who wanted a copy, to be sold for the benefit of a church. Lincoln accommodated him.

A similar incident accounts for the reference to a Deity in the Emancipation Proclamation.

It is an historical fact, and noteworthy to us, that the Emancipation Proclamation, was written, and printed, by Lincoln BEFORE he consulted the members of his cabinet. When he called them into conference, he handed each member a copy, and asked for suggestions.

One member, the overly pious Salmon P. Chase -- Secretary of the Treasury -- noticing that there was no reference to God, in the proclamation, suggested that some mention be made of it. Lincoln replied, "Won't you make a draft of what YOU think ought to be inserted."

And this accounts for the reference to God in this great document.

However, they are not Lincoln's words, nor his convictions.

They are the pious and useless sentiments of a fanatical religionist.

In every great crisis there are always religious fanatics who have spoken directly to God, and who are directed by God to deliver certain messages. The Civil War was no exception, and Lincoln was not free from these religious cranks. It is said that Lincoln, more than any other President, was constantly pestered by clergymen with advice "directly from God." He controlled his temper only because of his sympathy for the mentally deranged. To indicate his attitude toward such people, I will quote his words of contempt for them:

"I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and by religions men who are certain they represent Divine Will. I hope it will not be irreverent in me to say, that if it is probable that God would reveal His will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed He would reveal it directly to me."

GaryP · 08-17-2002, 11:00 AM

Thanks for the info. I had never heard that "under God" may be suspect in the speech.

I think I heard that GWB is going to recite the Gettysburg address as part of the 9/11 memorial service. I was trying to figure out what significance the Address could have in relationship to 9/11. Does anyone else suspect it is because of "under God"?

ex-preacher · 08-17-2002, 11:06 AM

I'm very interested to learn more about the Gettysburg speech. In the authoritative "Life and Writings of Abraham Lincoln" (Modern Library edition), Philip Van Doren Stern notes that there were differences between the versions written by Lincoln beforehand, what was actually delivered, and later revisions to the speech which Lincoln made. Stern used contemporary newspaper dispatches in trying to determine what Lincoln actually spoke. He comes up with the following:

"that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom." (p. 158)

I'm convinced that Lincoln was a believer in God (see his second inaugural address), although his God was closer to the God of Deism than the Christian God. Lincoln also held to the "Doctrine of Necessity," a type of predestination not that different from his childhood Calvinism.

Thus, contrary to what Joseph Lewis or Jerry Falwell have written, Lincoln was neither a "Freethinker" who only had "contempt" for "mentally deranged" religionists nor was he a Christian.

ex-preacher · 08-17-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryP:
I think I heard that GWB is going to recite the Gettysburg address as part of the 9/11 memorial service. I was trying to figure out what significance the Address could have in relationship to 9/11. Does anyone else suspect it is because of "under God"?

I don't think that's it, otherwise he would simply lead the nation in the Pledge of Allegiance (eek, I hope I didn't give him an idea). A number of foundational documents will be read at the 9/11 service, including the Declaration of Independence and Roosevelt's "Four Freedoms" speech. The Gettysburg Address is the most celebrated speech in US history. I think it fits in nicely with the 9/11 remembrance since it too was written to commemorate the lives and sacrifices of those who believed in liberty and the highest ideals of this nation. The document resonates still today as we continue to resolve "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

BTW, Stern believes that Lincoln plagiarized that last phrase (perhaps unconsciously) from the Unitarian heretic and abolitionist Theodore Parker, who was close friends with Herndon.

Toto · 08-17-2002, 11:40 AM

The Senate Bill that attempted to re-affirm "under God" in the Pledge listed the Gettysberg address as one of its "proofs" that this is a nation under God. I was not able to find an earlier reference to that phrase (in an admittedly brief search.)

Toto · 08-17-2002, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-preacher:

Thus, contrary to what Joseph Lewis or Jerry Falwell have written, Lincoln was neither a "Freethinker" who only had "contempt" for "mentally deranged" religionists nor was he a Christian.

The term "Freethinker" usually covers Deists. It originally referred to anyone who derived their beliefs from reason as opposed to Scripture and tradition. Deists often referred to "Nature's God", and some seem to have believed in some sort of divine providence.

Joseph Lewis may have been using more colorful language than is called for.

Toto · 08-17-2002, 12:13 PM

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000968" target="_blank">a related thread in Misc Disc</a> contains a link to a searchable database of Lincoln's writings. The phrase "under God" shows up in a few other speeches.

<a href="http://www.hti.umich.edu/l/lincoln/" target="_blank">http://www.hti.umich.edu/l/lincoln/</a>

The site says that "under God" was incorporated into the written address from the newspaper accounts.

Buffman · 08-17-2002, 12:47 PM

Interesting challenge. It would appear that external forces had more to do with the speech than the actual words written and spoken by Lincoln that day. It appears that MMO had a strong circumstantial case given the flow of events below.

<a href="http://www.thelastcool.com/dh2k/html/history-getty.html" target="_blank">http://www.thelastcool.com/dh2k/html/history-getty.html</a>

(Extract)

There are five known copies of that famous speech in Lincoln's own handwriting, two of which are in the Library of Congress. Lincoln gave these drafts to his two private secretaries, John Nicolay and John Hay. The version he gave to Nicolay is believed to be the earliest draft and the one he actually used for his speech. According to a statement that Nicolay made in 1894, Lincoln wrote the first page on Executive Mansion stationary and brought it with him to Gettysburg, and wrote the second page in pencil on lined paper shortly before the ceremony.

Lincoln wrote the second copy for John Hay shortly after he returned from the dedication ceremony. He wrote the other three copies some time later as a favor to acquaintances. "Hey, Abe, that was a great speech! How about making me a copy?"
One was for Edward Everett, one for the historian George Bancroft, and one was for Bancroft's stepson, Colonel Alexander Bliss. The Everett copy is now in the Illinois State Historical Library, the Bancroft copy is owned by Cornell University, and the Bliss copy hangs in the Lincoln Room of the White House.

(End extract)

<a href="http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/9/hh9g2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/9/hh9g2.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.wordchecksystems.com/examples/gettysburg.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wordchecksystems.com/examples/gettysburg.htm</a>

(Associated notes based on the Toto MMO post.)

<a href="http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Chase.html" target="_blank">http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Chase.html</a>

(Extract)

When Lincoln appointed him secretary of the treasury, Chase resigned his Senate seat and served as Treasury secretary from 1861 until July 1864.
As secretary of the treasury, Chase presided over the complex and difficult task of financing the war; he was instrumental in establishing the national banking system in 1863. But his more radical antislavery views, as well as political ambition, put him at odds with the more moderate Lincoln. Eventually, in 1864, Lincoln accepted Chase's resignation because, as Lincoln said, they had reached a point of "mutual embarrassment" in their official relations. Nevertheless, when Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Taney died in October of that year, Lincoln appointed Chase to the position. It was he who administered the presidential oath to Andrew Johnson following Lincoln's assassination.

(End extract)

<a href="http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html?IMAGE.X=39\&IMAGE.Y=8" target="_blank">http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html?IMAGE.X=39\&IMAGE.Y=8</a>

(Extract)

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins.

(End extract)

Stephen Maturin · 08-17-2002, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-preacher:
Stern used contemporary newspaper dispatches in trying to determine what Lincoln actually spoke.

Stern's correct. I've seen at least three separate newspaper accounts written by journalists who attended the dedication ceremony. They differ in some respects, but unanimously concur that Lincoln said the words "under God" as part of the address. There's little if any doubt that those words were part of the speech as given, though they don't appear in the earliest known written drafts.

08-17-2002, 07:35 AM	#1
d'naturalist Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 245	Gettysburg Address: "Under God" = Urban Legend? I was looking up the opening line of the Gettysburg Address and came aross the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/gadd/gadrft.html" target="_blank">Gettysburg Address</a> page on the Library of Congress website. On that page, they have what they believe to be the first two drafts of the Gettysburg Address that President Lincoln gave on Nov. 19, 1863. They even have photographs of the actual documents. What surprised me was noticing that the words "Under God" did not appear on either of Lincoln's drafts. Is there a recording of Lincoln giving the address (I assume not since Edison didn't invent the phonograph for another 14 years)? How do we know what Lincoln actually said that day? Are there published letters from Lincoln addressing the addition of those two words? I've never actually studied the Gettysburg Address (I confess with shame), so I'm just wondering what evidence has been used to establish the accuracy of the "official" version that we've all been quoted.

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08-17-2002, 11:00 AM	#3
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Thanks for the info. I had never heard that "under God" may be suspect in the speech. I think I heard that GWB is going to recite the Gettysburg address as part of the 9/11 memorial service. I was trying to figure out what significance the Address could have in relationship to 9/11. Does anyone else suspect it is because of "under God"?

08-17-2002, 11:06 AM	#4
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	I'm very interested to learn more about the Gettysburg speech. In the authoritative "Life and Writings of Abraham Lincoln" (Modern Library edition), Philip Van Doren Stern notes that there were differences between the versions written by Lincoln beforehand, what was actually delivered, and later revisions to the speech which Lincoln made. Stern used contemporary newspaper dispatches in trying to determine what Lincoln actually spoke. He comes up with the following: "that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom." (p. 158) I'm convinced that Lincoln was a believer in God (see his second inaugural address), although his God was closer to the God of Deism than the Christian God. Lincoln also held to the "Doctrine of Necessity," a type of predestination not that different from his childhood Calvinism. Thus, contrary to what Joseph Lewis or Jerry Falwell have written, Lincoln was neither a "Freethinker" who only had "contempt" for "mentally deranged" religionists nor was he a Christian.

08-17-2002, 11:40 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Senate Bill that attempted to re-affirm "under God" in the Pledge listed the Gettysberg address as one of its "proofs" that this is a nation under God. I was not able to find an earlier reference to that phrase (in an admittedly brief search.)

08-17-2002, 12:13 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000968" target="_blank">a related thread in Misc Disc</a> contains a link to a searchable database of Lincoln's writings. The phrase "under God" shows up in a few other speeches. <a href="http://www.hti.umich.edu/l/lincoln/" target="_blank">http://www.hti.umich.edu/l/lincoln/</a> The site says that "under God" was incorporated into the written address from the newspaper accounts.

08-17-2002, 12:47 PM	#9
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Interesting challenge. It would appear that external forces had more to do with the speech than the actual words written and spoken by Lincoln that day. It appears that MMO had a strong circumstantial case given the flow of events below. <a href="http://www.thelastcool.com/dh2k/html/history-getty.html" target="_blank">http://www.thelastcool.com/dh2k/html/history-getty.html</a> (Extract) There are five known copies of that famous speech in Lincoln's own handwriting, two of which are in the Library of Congress. Lincoln gave these drafts to his two private secretaries, John Nicolay and John Hay. The version he gave to Nicolay is believed to be the earliest draft and the one he actually used for his speech. According to a statement that Nicolay made in 1894, Lincoln wrote the first page on Executive Mansion stationary and brought it with him to Gettysburg, and wrote the second page in pencil on lined paper shortly before the ceremony. Lincoln wrote the second copy for John Hay shortly after he returned from the dedication ceremony. He wrote the other three copies some time later as a favor to acquaintances. "Hey, Abe, that was a great speech! How about making me a copy?" One was for Edward Everett, one for the historian George Bancroft, and one was for Bancroft's stepson, Colonel Alexander Bliss. The Everett copy is now in the Illinois State Historical Library, the Bancroft copy is owned by Cornell University, and the Bliss copy hangs in the Lincoln Room of the White House. (End extract) <a href="http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/9/hh9g2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/9/hh9g2.htm</a> <a href="http://www.wordchecksystems.com/examples/gettysburg.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wordchecksystems.com/examples/gettysburg.htm</a> (Associated notes based on the Toto MMO post.) <a href="http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Chase.html" target="_blank">http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Chase.html</a> (Extract) When Lincoln appointed him secretary of the treasury, Chase resigned his Senate seat and served as Treasury secretary from 1861 until July 1864. As secretary of the treasury, Chase presided over the complex and difficult task of financing the war; he was instrumental in establishing the national banking system in 1863. But his more radical antislavery views, as well as political ambition, put him at odds with the more moderate Lincoln. Eventually, in 1864, Lincoln accepted Chase's resignation because, as Lincoln said, they had reached a point of "mutual embarrassment" in their official relations. Nevertheless, when Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Taney died in October of that year, Lincoln appointed Chase to the position. It was he who administered the presidential oath to Andrew Johnson following Lincoln's assassination. (End extract) <a href="http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html?IMAGE.X=39\&IMAGE.Y=8" target="_blank">http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html?IMAGE.X=39\&IMAGE.Y=8</a> (Extract) The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. (End extract)

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