Kosmon

Whether or not a tangible god exists either in this universe or outside of it (I personally do not believe in either case), people on this planet have created a god. This god exists, affects their actions, causes them to do what he has written, influences their decisions, and otherwise holds a very real presence on believers. Because of fear of being cast into the depths of hell, or maybe driven by the promises of eternal life, believers have created a very real diety. So, whether or not there is actually a god interfering in this world, as long as there are the masses who believe in him, he WILL be interfering.

So... as much as people like to deny the existance of god... he does exist. Just not in the form that most of us like to think about =]

However... whether or not this god has influence on our lives is up to us

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kosmon ]</p>

Megatron

A strange way to look at it, but somehow I find myself in agreement.

Well said... except for one thing:

Due to a despicable amount of intolerance held by those who believe in this "God", it impacts even the lives of those who want nothing to do with it. Ask any atheist in NY and DC that lost family in the attacks whether or not their choice to live without the delusions removed the influence of those delusions from their lives... <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Zero Angel ]</p>

Kosmon

Yes I fully agree...

although what I meant by that was more or less influence on day to day activities and rituals, but whether or not we accept this god, he still has influence on our lives - you are right about that =]

Kosmon

so I guess out of all the people here who so franatically post against a christian god that has been beaten into the ground have nothing to say about a different concept?

Mageth

1) people have not created a god - they have "created" thousands if not millions of gods
2) the fact that one or a million people believe in a god does not make the god "very real"; it just signifies that those people believe in the particular god
3) it is not the god that is interfering - it is those who hold belief in the god
4) a particular god does not "cause" anyone to do anything; it's a belief in a particular god that motivates a person's actions.

So I would say god-belief is real; god(s) is not.

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Kosmon

True
Oh? So you are saying that the god(s) effect on people is not real? I would beg to differ seeing some bend the simple principles of logic to justify its existance. And yes, it signifies that those people believe in the particular god, and this is all fine and good. However, when people start to think and act based on what this god is 'telling' them, whats the difference between a very real presence and not very real?

Whats the difference? If the people didn't believe that this diety they have created was telling them things, would they do them? No... so this god they have created has taken a mind of its own and in effect controlled their lives to live by his accordances. This idea that was intended behind the original concept of say, the christian god, has morphed and taken many shapes and forms, all far different than what the creators had in mind. The god just changes based on the whim of the masses, telling them what to do and affecting their decisions, when it is infact the masses who are doing this (they just dont know it)

What's the difference?

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kosmon ]</p>

Agnostichero

The difference arises if you accept that "reality" is something that exists outside of human beings' own subjective thoughts and beliefs.

If you believe that the only "real" world that exists is the one inside your head, then perhaps your belief in a god makes that god "real."

The same logic, however, would require us to accept the reality of the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. Many children sincerely believe in the existence of these entities. Moreover, our behavior as a society is impacted by the fact that children possess these beliefs. It's the adults, after all, that perpetuate the fantasy by putting coins under pillows and presents under trees.

If the only criteria by which we judge something to be "real" are (1) whether someone believes in it, and (2) whether the existence of this belief affects other humans, we would be in a serious bind. We would be forced to accept as "real" an immense number of competing and irreconcilable fables, superstitions, and hoaxes.

Nearly every belief, no matter how delusional, has an effect on other people if communicated.

Mageth

Agnostichero is my hero for that eloquent response! I'll only reply to one point:

Oh? So you are saying that the god(s) effect on people is not real?

Yes and no; god(s) has no effect on people; he/she/it does not exist (I'm a strong atheist). People's beliefs, however, have effects on themselves and on others through their actions.