Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ajm51987 · 10-04-2002, 01:51 PM

is there a law anyware that says I must stand for the flag salute? Does the goverment let the state decide this, just curious as i don't want to go searching im my states constution for nothing

thanks

beejay · 10-04-2002, 02:32 PM

Certainly no Federal law. If there is a state law, it is unconstitutional.

If you've been told you have to stand, call your local ACLU chapter. The ACLU routinely calls schools, especially at the beginning of the school year, to remind them of the law.

If you need more information, let me know. I have references to Federal court cases and links to a national association of principals where principals are warned that students need not stand and must not be criticized for not standing.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: beejay ]</p>

Stephen Maturin · 10-04-2002, 02:37 PM

ajm,

There are no federal flag exercise laws for public schools. Passing such laws is up to state legislatures, which usually delegate the nuts and bolts details of implementation to local school boards. Here's what your state legislature has to say on the subject:

Quote:

The board of directors of every school district shall cause a United States flag being in good condition to be displayed during school hours upon or near every public school plant, except during inclement weather. They shall cause appropriate flag exercises to be held in each classroom at the beginning of the school day, and in every school at the opening of all school assemblies, at which exercises those pupils so desiring shall recite the following salute to the flag: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". Students not reciting the pledge shall maintain a respectful silence. The salute to the flag or the national anthem shall be rendered immediately preceding interschool events when feasible.

R.C.W. 28A.230.140.

The statute itself doesn't impose an affirmative duty to stand during the flag salute. If such a requirement exists in your school, it probably takes the form of a school district policy. However, as beejay correctly noted, any such policy would be unconstitutional.

ajm51987 · 10-04-2002, 05:52 PM

thanks, guys, heh heh monday shall be fun

Alonzo Fyfe · 10-04-2002, 07:15 PM

I would like to propose that, whatever it is you may have planned for Monday, that you take care not to be misunderstood.

One of the favorite tactics of the theocrats -- the very reason that they are eager to tie religious rituals and patriotic rituals into the same bundle -- is a love of portraying anybody who does not go along with the religious ritual as anti-patriotic (anti-liberty; anti-justice for all).

I would urge anybody considering an action to have a written document ready, explaining why you are doing what you are doing, that can be handed out (or quoted from) that -- among other things -- clearly addresses this issue.

I invite you to discuss your plans in the CSS forum.

Maverick · 10-04-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alonzo Fyfe:
<strong>I invite you to discuss your plans in the CSS forum.</strong>

Actually, I'll make it easier and move this thread over there.

Maverick - SL&S Moderator

gravitybow · 10-05-2002, 02:21 PM

ajm,

Have a seat.

Let's start with this from the <a href="http://acluweb.best.vwh.net/students/guide/pledge.html" target="_blank">Students' Rights Guide</a> at the AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION of NORTHERN CALIFORNIA website:

Quote:

PLEDGE & PRAYERS
Do we have to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

No. The courts say that students have the right to sit silently during the flag salute and Pledge of Allegiance as a protest against government policies (such as the death penalty or abolishing affirmative action) or in opposition to the words of the Pledge.

Almost 60 years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that compulsory flag salute (Pledge of Allegiance) violated an individual’s constitutional right to free expression. As long as you do not disrupt the pledge, you may refuse to participate. You do not need your parents’ permission to opt out of saying the pledge.

If that doesn't sit well with your school, how about this from the <a href="http://www.principals.org/services/legal_pldg_allegiance.html" target="_blank">National Association of Secondary School Principals </a> :

Quote:

In addition, students or teachers are not required to stand during the pledge of allegiance, nor are they required to leave the room. Goetz v. Ansell, 447 F.2d 636 (3d. Cir. 1978)

You may want to print that page. It's pretty good. (Just in case you want to dig deeper, there is an error in the above citation: 2d. Cir., not 3d. Cir. )

Both of these sites also refer to case law established by <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=319&invol=624" target="_blank">WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943).</a>

This was a case brought by Jehovah's Witnesses. You may want to read the entire text since many subsequent rulings concerning prayer and the Pledge refer to it. But here are some of the salient points in your case. From BARNETTE:

Quote:

The State announces rank, function, and authority through crowns and maces, uniforms and black robes; the church speaks through the Cross, the Crucifix, the altar and shrine, and clerical reiment. Symbols of State often convey political ideas just as religious symbols come to convey theological ones. Associated with many of these symbols are appropriate gestures of acceptance or respect: a salute, a bowed or bared head, a bended knee. A person gets from a [319 U.S. 624, 633] symbol the meaning he puts into it, and what is one man's comfort and inspiration is another's jest and scorn.

The above is talking about the flag salute, and you and I both know that it is not rendered from a seated position. And if a bended knee is a respecting of an ideology, surely a straightened one from obligatory standing is capable of the same meaning, especially to you.

Quote:

Here it is the State that employs a flag as a symbol of adherence to government as presently organized. It requires the individual to communicate by word and sign his acceptance of the political ideas it thus bespeaks. Objection to this form of communication when coerced is an old one, well known to the framers of the Bill of Rights.

Coerced standing for the flag could be construed as such a sign.

Quote:

Nor does the issue as we see it turn on one's possession of particular religious views or the sincerity with which they are held. While religion supplies appellees' motive for enduring the discomforts of making the issue in this case, many citizens who do not share these religious views [319 U.S. 624, 635] hold such a compulsory rite to infringe constitutional liberty of the individual. It is not necessary to inquire whether non-conformist beliefs will exempt from the duty to salute unless we first find power to make the salute a legal duty.

Since the Court did indeed find that there is no such power to make the Pledge a legal duty, it is moot to ask you to justify your beliefs or question your sincerity about them.

There's some good stuff in BARNETTE, especially about school boards in general. Read it sometime. I'll leave you with this million-dollar quote:

Quote:

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

ajm51987 · 10-05-2002, 07:33 PM

AHHH! SO MUCH READING!!!

Heh heh really, thanks, for all the info, gravitybow I have lots to think, and read about.

------

I don't think anbody would really care if I stood or not, I just want to be sure in case, although I was wasen't too worried, as the administration at my school could be out smarted by a thrid grader

10-04-2002, 01:51 PM	#1
ajm51987 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seattle, USA Posts: 245	on the flag salute is there a law anyware that says I must stand for the flag salute? Does the goverment let the state decide this, just curious as i don't want to go searching im my states constution for nothing thanks

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10-04-2002, 02:32 PM	#2
beejay Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Richmond IN Posts: 375	Certainly no Federal law. If there is a state law, it is unconstitutional. If you've been told you have to stand, call your local ACLU chapter. The ACLU routinely calls schools, especially at the beginning of the school year, to remind them of the law. If you need more information, let me know. I have references to Federal court cases and links to a national association of principals where principals are warned that students need not stand and must not be criticized for not standing. [ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: beejay ]</p>

10-04-2002, 05:52 PM	#4
ajm51987 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seattle, USA Posts: 245	thanks, guys, heh heh monday shall be fun

10-04-2002, 07:15 PM	#5
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I would like to propose that, whatever it is you may have planned for Monday, that you take care not to be misunderstood. One of the favorite tactics of the theocrats -- the very reason that they are eager to tie religious rituals and patriotic rituals into the same bundle -- is a love of portraying anybody who does not go along with the religious ritual as anti-patriotic (anti-liberty; anti-justice for all). I would urge anybody considering an action to have a written document ready, explaining why you are doing what you are doing, that can be handed out (or quoted from) that -- among other things -- clearly addresses this issue. I invite you to discuss your plans in the CSS forum.

10-05-2002, 07:33 PM	#8
ajm51987 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seattle, USA Posts: 245	AHHH! SO MUCH READING!!! Heh heh really, thanks, for all the info, gravitybow I have lots to think, and read about. ------ I don't think anbody would really care if I stood or not, I just want to be sure in case, although I was wasen't too worried, as the administration at my school could be out smarted by a thrid grader

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